76 day will cover it? …and other questions (1 Viewer)

[alstang1]

Ok, I am reading that ick lifecycle can be eliminated in 76 days. So for new tanks is this the cycle time suggested
Outside of the nitrate cycle are there other issues I should research prior to adding items?
Are shrimps carriers of any ailments that would make them unsafe to add at an earlier date?

I plan on adding yellow tangs as an early cleaning crew. How many and how soon for a 180 reef w dry rock, sump, and water that was delivered by LFS.

At what point do I start the refugium, and where is a good source for safe clean media? Should I add refugium light or wait the 3 months or so it takes to add lights to the main tank, so as to not promote excess algae bloom?

what am I not considering in these questions for this stage of the game? Is there any hardware suggested before moving items into tank?

 

[foos]

Have you added anything to your tank yet? If your goal is an ich free system with tangs, your best bet is right now. I had a 210G setup with an achiles and powder blue and no ich. I did it by doing hypo in the display tank and qt-ing everything added after that. If you have no coral or inverts in the display, now is your best time to do hypo on all your fish at once without having to have a larger qt system.

There are other methods you can try such as tank transfer and copper, but if you want a bunch of tangs it is best to add them all at once when they are small to reduce the risk of aggression.

When I set up my next large tank, the plan is to cycle it, add tangs and other fish that can handle hypo as quickly as I can, drop the display down to hypo, leave it there 3 months, then on say monday raise it back up to normal over the day, leave it tuesday, then wednesday drop it back to hypo over the day, then leave it there for a few weeks. My experience was that ich cysts stay in the cyst form in hypo salinity, so I would keep it there long enough to make sure only cysts are left, then raise it to get them to "hatch" but drop it back down before they can get back to the cyst stage, and wait out to make sure they all die.

If you go through the hassle of doing something like that, anything you add to the tank from the start of the process on needs to qt in a separate system for 3 months, or whatever you are comfortable with. Technically you can scrub snail shells and frag your frags so you only add coral fleshy parts and not the frag plug or any skeleton.

For how many, one is probably enough to eat algae. If you want more, just make sure you have proper filtration to handle them, and you have plenty of sleeping and hiding spots.

 

[Seaworthy Aquatics]

As long as everything is properly quarantined going into the tank you don't need to wait 76 days. I tend to QT my fish ahead of time then put them in the tank as soon as it's cycled. Inverts can certainly transfer diseases such as ich and must be QT'd in a fishless tank for 76 days to allow the life cycle to go through without a host fish. You also shouldn't need a refugium for a good while, at least not for the purpose of nutrient reduction. For something like chaeto the tank needs to be mature, between 6 months and a year in my experience depending on the nutrient load of the tank. Anything you put in it would most likely need extra food added to the tank to sustain it. I've started refugiums pretty quick with macros and things in the past, but I had to dose phosphate and nitrate to keep them healthy. I'd focus on the health of the display before moving on to a refugium as the tank matures.

 

[alstang1]

Interesting outlook from you @chrisfoos. I had never heard the hypo info before. In your scenario, what salinity level are you considering hypo and what are you considering normal? I have addedbagged live sand from a Florida company and a cycle inducing liquid product. No intentional living creatures yet.

@SWCRitt what do I need to know about a qt tank? Can it be an empty tank newly set up with nothing more than power head and water, or does it need cycled? Does size matter?

 

[Seaworthy Aquatics]

Humblefish has a great guide on getting started with QT. Yes you can go with super simple and use it right away, but it would require near constant water changes to account for water quality issues. A small tank with a hang on back filter with a bio wheel that is jump started with bacteria is preferable. He gives a more detailed explanation in the guide.

How To - Quarantine

How to Setup a Quarantine Tank (updated 4-6-2023) The following are the essentials: Aquarium (10-30 gallons seems to work for most people. A larger QT lets you house more fish and gives you more wiggle room when it comes to ammonia. A smaller QT is cheaper, easier to maintain and can be...

humble.fish

 

[foos]

It has been a while since I did it so I forget the range I kept, but it was a rather narrow range. There are plenty of guides on it and I recommend looking them over to see if that is the route you want to take. My advice if you do would be to use a good refractometer and auto top off, and change salinity slowly.

 

[Erin]

@alstang1, I commend you for wanting to get off on the right foot and try to avoid any mis-steps as you set up your tank. Please look at the resources that are already out there, either by searching this site, searching reef2reef, reef central, etc. Humblefish, Randy Holmes Farley, and a lot of other really experienced folks have taken the time to write the equivalent of probably a hundred books, and it's all put there free for us . Thoughtful questions are always welcome and most everyone here is happy to offer advice, but most of us did our own research along the way and don't want to reinvent the wheel to answer questions that have already been thoroughly discussed elsewhere.

Regarding an ich free tank, unless you plan to do an extensive quarantine on EVERYTHING before you put it into your display, your tank will almost surely have it at some point. The thing about ich is it's like MRSA and a lot of other bacteria in humans... everyone carries it but only the weak, injured, sick, or stressed become ill. Keeping up with tank husbandry and having healthy, happy fish are the best ways to prevent anything from succumbing to illness. Chris's idea of basically using the display as the quarantine for your first fish is definitely something to look into... Saves a step if you're willing to wait on adding other things.

Most of all, don't get too caught up in doing things "perfectly"... enjoy the experience and learn what your tank needs along the way
Looking forward to seeing your progress!

 

[alstang1]

@alstang1, I commend you for wanting to get off on the right foot and try to avoid any mis-steps as you set up your tank. Please look at the resources that are already out there, either by searching this site, searching reef2reef, reef central, etc. Humblefish, Randy Holmes Farley, and a lot of other really experienced folks have taken the time to write the equivalent of probably a hundred books, and it's all put there free for us . Thoughtful questions are always welcome and most everyone here is happy to offer advice, but most of us did our own research along the way and don't want to reinvent the wheel to answer questions that have already been thoroughly discussed elsewhere.

Regarding an ich free tank, unless you plan to do an extensive quarantine on EVERYTHING before you put it into your display, your tank will almost surely have it at some point. The thing about ich is it's like MRSA and a lot of other bacteria in humans... everyone carries it but only the weak, injured, sick, or stressed become ill. Keeping up with tank husbandry and having healthy, happy fish are the best ways to prevent anything from succumbing to illness. Chris's idea of basically using the display as the quarantine for your first fish is definitely something to look into... Saves a step if you're willing to wait on adding other things.

Most of all, don't get too caught up in doing things "perfectly"... enjoy the experience and learn what your tank needs along the way
Looking forward to seeing your progress!

The very first sentence obviously identifies that I have been researching. Any spin you put on it, from my point of view that sounded like a Richard move from a board member. I got the message tho. It’s only dumb questions if it’s dumb questions. Got it. Thanks.

 

[alstang1]

The very first sentence obviously identifies that I have been researching. Any spin you put on it, from my point of view that sounded like a Richard move from a board member. I got the message tho. It’s only dumb questions if it’s dumb questions. Got it. Thanks.

I really must follow up and further explain my point of view…. In another post, I had researched on my own, water mixing station setup. I found a distributor selling items needed and shared it here. I was informed politely that I made a $480ish not so wise decision. Had I posted prior, I could have better chosen, but then when I’m preimptive I’m led to believe I should make the mistakes first and then try to figure out why. No basic questions. When you have all the answers come back here and….. ooh wait, there’s no need to come back now….

 

[Erin]

The very first sentence obviously identifies that I have been researching. Any spin you put on it, from my point of view that sounded like a Richard move from a board member. I got the message tho. It’s only dumb questions if it’s dumb questions. Got it. Thanks.

What?? I in no way was "spinning" anything and have no idea who Richard is. I'm sorry you interpreted my message in such a negative way. Your very first post had some specific requirements for a mentor which came across as you wanting to have someone to coach you through every step - my message was intended to help you by pointing out existing resources so that you could become more confident and not feel like you needed so much close supervision.
Again, I did not mean to offend you or imply that you were asking dumb questions.

 

[alstang1]

What?? I in no way was "spinning" anything and have no idea who Richard is. I'm sorry you interpreted my message in such a negative way. Your very first post had some specific requirements for a mentor which came across as you wanting to have someone to coach you through every step - my message was intended to help you by pointing out existing resources so that you could become more confident and not feel like you needed so much close supervision.
Again, I did not mean to offend you or imply that you were asking dumb questions.

Fair enough. I apologize for the misinterpretation. For the record, I just calculated the past 14 days of YouTube research. 52 weeks of reefing, 5 minute guide, the aquarium guy, Mr aquarium, aquaaquria…. 94 hours of consumption of research from that one platform alone in 14 days. Not to mention, a large amount of the content watched multiple times, either to understand it better or to share the knowledge with my wife. The question asked herein may sound simple to the seasoned reefer, but none the less info I desire to make an informed decision on.
Perfect example. The majority of the community assumes that tank parameters should be a given, so 99% of the content available assumes it’s known and leaves it out. Can it be found? Absolutely. Then, what is the easiest way to find it? Ask those who know, and set up a platform professing that knowledge. I can see how asking tank parameters could seem very lazy. And now you can understand how it can seem very justified.

I do desire to locate someone I can vocally bounce ideas off of, shoot out ideas to. Because I’m no pioneer in the field. Everything has been thought of, tried and heavily evaluated. Just because I don’t know where to locate it, doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. So having a knowledgeable person that understands the struggle and is ok with getting questions that may sound dumb to the average guy, but saves the wasted dumb questions post would be great. I’m sure that guy is out there, and to him/her I’m sorry in advance, and thank you for your time. You are the reason I have been able to protect my pets from undue harm.

 

[steveb]

Ok, I am reading that ick lifecycle can be eliminated in 76 days. So for new tanks is this the cycle time suggested
Outside of the nitrate cycle are there other issues I should research prior to adding items?
Are shrimps carriers of any ailments that would make them unsafe to add at an earlier date?

I plan on adding yellow tangs as an early cleaning crew. How many and how soon for a 180 reef w dry rock, sump, and water that was delivered by LFS.

At what point do I start the refugium, and where is a good source for safe clean media? Should I add refugium light or wait the 3 months or so it takes to add lights to the main tank, so as to not promote excess algae bloom?

what am I not considering in these questions for this stage of the game? Is there any hardware suggested before moving items into tank?

I wouldn't worry about ick/velvet (cryptocaryon irritans/Amyloodinium ocellatum) with a new setup unless you are using something that is still "wet" from another system.

Nitrogen cycle is the biggie starting up and often not spoken of is the algae cycle that follows - lots of ugly algae's when you first start - IMO better to have some nitrates and phosphates in the system as having those two zero'd out creates an opportunity for dinoflagellates to bring forth joy (sarcasm) for the reefer.

I think its already been covered but anything "wet" coming into your system should be QT'd IMO. While Cryptocaryon irritans/Amyloodinium ocellatum don't infect macro algae/rock/sand/snails etc. they can carry the encysted tomonts into your system.

IMO its best to QT fish with chloroquine phosphate rather than copper if you can find it/afford it. Negatives to chloroquine phosphate is there is no hobby grade test for it. You have to follow the guidelines.

In the end its going to be a personal decision.... some people don't QT and get along fine (some even with tangs), others suffer wipeouts.

Some of us that do QT still suffer wipeouts (probably some carelessness or a missed step). I personally lost an entire tank to velvet (Amyloodinium ocellatum) due to a missed step or carelessness when I was QT'ing a batch of tangs using chloroquine phosphate.

On a side note and why I use chloroquine phosphate -- I personally have suffered more losses trying to QT with copper so I try to avoid it if possible. There are some fish that don't tolerate chloroquine phosphate so have to use copper. Think of copper as chemo therapy - the objective is to kill the parasites before you kill the fish...

Flukes and worms are taken care of during QT using praziquental/metronidazole. While in QT once they are eating I dose General cure in the food for internal parasites.

My two pennies worth 1/8 of a cent due to inflation.

 

[alstang1]

I wouldn't worry about ick/velvet (cryptocaryon irritans/Amyloodinium ocellatum) with a new setup unless you are using something that is still "wet" from another system.

Nitrogen cycle is the biggie starting up and often not spoken of is the algae cycle that follows - lots of ugly algae's when you first start - IMO better to have some nitrates and phosphates in the system as having those two zero'd out creates an opportunity for dinoflagellates to bring forth joy (sarcasm) for the reefer.

I think its already been covered but anything "wet" coming into your system should be QT'd IMO. While Cryptocaryon irritans/Amyloodinium ocellatum don't infect macro algae/rock/sand/snails etc. they can carry the encysted tomonts into your system.

IMO its best to QT fish with chloroquine phosphate rather than copper if you can find it/afford it. Negatives to chloroquine phosphate is there is no hobby grade test for it. You have to follow the guidelines.

In the end its going to be a personal decision.... some people don't QT and get along fine (some even with tangs), others suffer wipeouts.

Some of us that do QT still suffer wipeouts (probably some carelessness or a missed step). I personally lost an entire tank to velvet (Amyloodinium ocellatum) due to a missed step or carelessness when I was QT'ing a batch of tangs using chloroquine phosphate.

On a side note and why I use chloroquine phosphate -- I personally have suffered more losses trying to QT with copper so I try to avoid it if possible. There are some fish that don't tolerate chloroquine phosphate so have to use copper. Think of copper as chemo therapy - the objective is to kill the parasites before you kill the fish...

Flukes and worms are taken care of during QT using praziquental/metronidazole. While in QT once they are eating I dose General cure in the food for internal parasites.

My two pennies worth 1/8a cent due to inflation.

Damn inflation.
Thank you for this deep dive into QT. I’ve always heard it talked about as if no big deal. This puts a whole new spin on it. I definitely need to research more before purchasing fish.
Question: The bagged live sand (don’t remember name of Florida company) came with a minimal amount of water but I have been led to believe it is clean and safe. Would that me a safe assumption?

 

[Seaworthy Aquatics]

Damn inflation.
Thank you for this deep dive into QT. I’ve always heard it talked about as if no big deal. This puts a whole new spin on it. I definitely need to research more before purchasing fish.
Question: The bagged live sand (don’t remember name of Florida company) came with a minimal amount of water but I have been led to believe it is clean and safe. Would that me a safe assumption?

Yes it's safe as a bag of old water can be. I have never been convince the bagged live sand does anything. Seems like nothing could survive long in a bag on a shelf like that, at least nothing useful. I prefer to use dry sand. Can give it a good rinse before hand that way. It shouldn't hurt anything though.

 

[steveb]

I would think so but it all depends on your level of paranoia

and full disclosure - my current fish have been through a QT after resetting my tank. The macro/snails supposedly come from fishless systems from a couple of different vendors. I have put frags into my tank without QT from other members so....

 

[alstang1]

I would think so but it all depends on your level of paranoia

and full disclosure - my current fish have been through a QT after resetting my tank. The macro/snails supposedly come from fishless systems from a couple of different vendors. I have put frags into my tank without QT from other members so....

I feel a little better… thank you.

 

[steveb]

Yes it's safe as a bag of old water can be. I have never been convince the bagged live sand does anything. Seems like nothing could survive long in a bag on a shelf like that, at least nothing useful. I prefer to use dry sand. Can give it a good rinse before hand that way. It shouldn't hurt anything though.

I was reading this as the live sand from one of the gulf liverock vendors which is typically shipped in water for 24 hours.

I agree the bag of "live sand" you find in a LFS has questionable levels of live bacteria.

 

[alstang1]

I was reading this as the live sand from one of the gulf liverock vendors which is typically shipped in water for 24 hours.

I agree the bag of "live sand" you find in a LFS has questionable levels of live bacteria.

Yes. I was referring to LFS WET sand.

 

[BigRick]

If you want someone to guide you, then there is no better person in the industry in our area then other then David Raines @ Galactic Coral.

 

[alstang1]

If you want someone to guide you, then there is no better person in the industry in our area then other then David Raines @ Galactic Coral.

Thanks. Running up to Houston to see if I can catch him today.