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An Actual Solution To STN (AKA White Band Disease)

Cody

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So the one good thing that came of the debate of the snake oil salesman that was pushing his STN/RTN product was that it caused me to dig deeply into what caused corals to lose skin. Research showed that there was a bacteria called Vibrio at the scene of the crime and a Cilite that was eating the skin as it came off. This same research found that if you kill the Cilite, which was scavenging, then the skin loss continued. However, if you dealt with the Vibrio bacteria via an Ampicillin dip, the tissue loss stopped. What that study showed was that the Vibrio bacteria is the main offender. The theory is that it exists around the coral but becomes aggressive when the opportunity to attack presents itself. Just like a bacterial infection of a human, it pounces once the immune system is weakened due to other factors.


For a solution, I thought about a good ole Lugol's iodine dip. The iodine dip is an anti-septic that should deal with the Vibrio that's attacking the weakened coral. I have dipped four different corals that were suffering from skin loss due to my negligence of maintenance and out of wack parameters. Two of the corals remained in the same tank, and two went to a different tank with parameters that were correct.

The two that remained in the original tank had the parameters corrected over the next few days. None lost any more skin.

The two that went to the new tank with correct parameters didn't lose any more skin.

Does this mean that the Lugol's dip was the factor that corrected this? I can't say. Too many changing variables to form causation. However, it was part of the equation in both situations, so take from that what you will. Having said that, I turned @reeftopia onto the dip as well and he apparently has had good results without as many variables as I introduced.




Now, to revisit what I opened up with. Here is the link to the article complete with pictures to document the results.
Experimental antibiotic treatment identifies potential pathogens of white band disease in the endangered Caribbean coral Acropora cervicornis

Ampicillin stopped the progression of skin loss. Ampicillin is an antibiotic that targets the cell walls of the bacteria. It's used on humans all the time to help with treatment of a bacteria infection. However, we do not have access to it due to prescription limitations. From what I understand, the biggest reason for this is to prevent the excessive use of the antibiotics. If you're just flushing it down the drain, the bacteria in the drains, etc has the ability to encounter it at a lowered dose and potentially form a resistance to it. There is certain protocol to dispose of it to prevent this happening but I can't recall how to handle it off of the top of my head. I will look that up and link it later.

By chance, today, I found out that you can buy fish treating antibiotics online that many folks use for themselves instead of paying the ridiculous health care costs these days. The antibiotic in these treatments is Amoxicillin. It has the same effects of Ampicillin however it is slightly more lipid soluble, and tends to target bacteria quicker, from what I can research. As far as how much and longevity to dip, I'm not certain. Just came by this today and wanted to share. However, Amoxicillin seems to have the same effect according to what I've looked up.

So, here are my thoughts on this. I was on the phone with Sharath earlier and when a human has a serious cut, they clean the cut to prevent the immediate spread of bacteria and then prescribe antibiotics to prevent the bacteria from festering. Why can't we do the same with corals? Hit the Vibrio with an anti-septic dip of Lugols, in addition to an Amoxicillin dip to further our cause of preventing the Vibrio from attacking coral tissue. I'd love to run some experiments but time is the limiting factor at this point.
 
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steveb

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Cody what was your lugols dose?


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I just dipped one acropora (Miyagi Tort) with what looked like bite marks after being dipped 3x (Bayer and Revive) before it went into the tank. All the other 20 or so Acro’s have been doing great.

I used Prime Coral dip...so FOR SURE it will heal and get better. LOL!

If not, I’ll try Lugols and report back. Wink Wink..
 

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I used $4 Witch Hazel from Walmart with exceptional results to stop TN.

However the environmental culprit has to be resolved leading to the infection.

Not all by Vibrio as to see in this video.

 

steveb

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I used $4 Witch Hazel from Walmart with exceptional results to stop TN.

However the environmental culprit has to be resolved leading to the infection.

Not all by Vibrio as to see in this video.

Andre would you mind sharing your ratio of witch hazel to tank water?


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steveb

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I do lol


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"Bath of one liter"

Your German is coming out haha

I don't think I have a single container that can measure a liter
Well, I do not measure, I weigh ;-)

Amazon kitchen scale dual unit....
1000g equal 1 Liter ;-)
 

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Well, I do not measure, I weigh ;-)

Amazon kitchen scale dual unit....
1000g equal 1 Liter ;-)
1/L = 33.8 oz.

Andre, the dip only works if the entire colony is submerged. :lol_hitting: That thing is breaching air.
 
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Cody

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Well, I do not measure, I weigh ;-)

Amazon kitchen scale dual unit....
1000g equal 1 Liter ;-)
Liters? Grams? You're taking me further down the rabbit hole!

So what's the active ingredient in that stuff? Sorry to ask you to rehash what I'm sure you've already explained elsewhere.
 
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Cody

Cody

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I used $4 Witch Hazel from Walmart with exceptional results to stop TN.

However the environmental culprit has to be resolved leading to the infection.

Not all by Vibrio as to see in this video.

While I agree that the environmental culprit has to be resolved (assuming it's extreme), but the experiment done with ampicillin used water from the collection site to test their theory. They didn't change any other external parameter other than the antibiotic being dosed. Very interesting.
 
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PSXerholic

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While I agree that the environmental culprit has to be resolved (assuming it's extreme), but the experiment done with ampicillin used water from the collection site to test their theory. They didn't change any other external parameter other than the antibiotic being dosed. Very interesting.
Cody,
I did talk to Michael Sweet and replicated his treatment with antibiotics.

I did setup 2 hospital tanks with 100mg/L antibiotics of metro, ampicillin and amoxicillin and the infected corals did not make it longer than a few hours unfortunately.
That was during a strong peak of TN.
Nothing seemed to help the frags.

As I was starting to resolve the tank issues frags that were infected I could treat with the with hazel dip and hydrogen peroxide dip. Witch hazel was better in results and survival rate.
It takes the infected tissue off the sceleton and helps the recovery well.
The active ingredient is literally witch hazel extract.
 
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Cody

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Cody,
I did talk to Michael Sweet and replicated his treatment with antibiotics.

I did setup 2 hospital tanks with 100mg/L antibiotics of metro, ampicillin and amoxicillin and the infected corals did not make it longer than a few hours unfortunately.
That was during a strong peak of TN.
Nothing seemed to help the frags.

As I was starting to resolve the tank issues frags that were infected I could treat with the with hazel dip and hydrogen peroxide dip. Witch hazel was better in results and survival rate.
It takes the infected tissue off the sceleton and helps the recovery well.
The active ingredient is literally witch hazel extract.
Interesting results. Out of curiosity, what lead you to try hazel?
 

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For the record....the Miyagi Tort I dipped in the Prime Coral dip did not stop STN. Did a 7 minute dip at his recommended dosage. TN continues to progress. In fact it’s moving faster now. All the other Acro’s are doing well. Other than burnt tips!! Lol. I reduced my intensity, photo period, and slowly bringing the dKH down to Triton’s recommended level.

-SNAKE OIL- for sure!
 

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Interesting results. Out of curiosity, what lead you to try hazel?
Credit goes to my wife!
She mentioned to try that since it’s known for its very gentle but at the same time very antiseptic characteristics. It allows cells to heal rather than destroying like peroxide or iodine.

So when I had a hopeless frag laying in the bin, I took it out again and dipped it! Then looked under the microscope afterwards to see what happend to the deteriorating tissue!

That frag is still on the rack these days recovered and growing again ;-)
 
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Cody

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Credit goes to my wife!
She mentioned to try that since it’s known for its very gentle but at the same time very antiseptic characteristics. It allows cells to heal rather than destroying like peroxide or iodine.

So when I had a hopeless frag laying in the bin, I took it out again and dipped it! Then looked under the microscope afterwards to see what happend to the deteriorating tissue!

That frag is still on the rack these days recovered and growing again ;-)
I always had a sneaking suspicion that she was running the show. Suspicion confirmed!
 
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