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Candy Cane Coral in Trouble (1 Viewer)

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SCUBAFreaky

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A little over a week ago 2 of my candy canes colonies stopped inflating during the day and began to show their skeletons. I have 5 different candy cane colonies and eventually all 5 have started showing the same symptoms. For about a month now I've gone from once a month water changes to weekly changes. After my weekly water change last week they did not get any better. In fact, they may have gotten a little worse. Other corals showing signs of unhappiness are all 3 of my Acan Echinatas (also tissue recession) and 2 colonies of bird of paradise birdnests (no polyp extension). The birdnests may have been the first coral to show signs of trouble actually. All of my other corals look and seem fantastic. 5 Euphyllia colonies, BTA, Flower nems, all the zoas, chalice, 3 acro colonies, digitata, etc all seem fine.

I am going to lead the witness a little. Are my nitrates too low? I did 3 separate nitrate tests tonight.

Red Sea: ~0.5 ppm
Nyos: <1 ppm
Hanna Checker: 1.9 ppm

When I started keeping corals again back in March I also added an algae scrubber. It took it a month for it to start growing algae. I tested phosphates and nitrates for a month after that and my nitrates were always around 25 ppm (nyos) so I stopped testing nitrates but continued testing phosphates. At that time all of my corals did not seem to mind the nitrates being at 25 ppm. At that point I declared that I have a high nutrient system and adjusted my lighting accordingly. Never did I dream that my nitrates would drop this much. I guess algae scrubbers REALLY do reduce nitrates!!

For completeness sake my other parameters are as tested tonight:

Alk: 8.8 dKH (Hanna Checker) Note: I adjusted Alk up to 9.3 with 2 part soda ash tonight after testing
Calcium: 460 ppm (Red Sea)
Magnesium: 1440 ppm (Red Sea)
Phosphate: 0.75 ppm (Hanna Checker)
Salinity: 1.026
Temp Range: 78.3 - 80.5 deg F
pH Range: 8.1 - 8.3 (also see attached plot)
RODI TDS: 1 ppm

I have not made any changes to my lighting and the T5 and halide bulbs were new as of March 2020.

Has anyone had similar issues with certain LPS colonies being sensitive to low nitrates by exhibiting tissue recession? Water changes do not seem to help this issue. Any other thoughts or experiences with why my Candy Cane corals are doing this? Is there some other trace element that has been reduced with the water changes? Seems like the water changes should replenish trace elements and not reduce them. I've also been dosing Brightwell's KoralColor every 4 to 5 days per instructions.

What should be my next step? Dose nitrates? I don't have any experience with that so I definitely would need some guidance.

What about my algae scrubber? For tonight I have turned off the light for it. It has a load of algae ready to be harvested though. Do I leave the algae in there for now but leave the scrubber lights off for a few days?

I'm definitely hoping others have had similar issues with certain LPS coral and can tell me how to fix this. Thanks in advance!!

Capture+_2020-10-05-01-38-30.png
 
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Cody

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Regardless of this issue, you're running very low nitrates. Your phosphates are high too, but not terribly crazy. It seems counter intuitive, but in the past, with nitrates as low as yours and phosphates as high as yours are, you're best bet to get both back into check is to dose nitrates.

According to the Redfield ratio, chlorophyll will consume nitrates and phosphates at a 16:1 ratio, respectively. Your algae and coral are nitrate-prohibited, more than likely, which doesn't allow them to produce carbohydrates, amino acids, etc via photosynthesis as food for your corals because they don't have enough nitrates to complete the process. Your phosphates should drop, and nitrates obviously raise, if you dose nitrates.

At least, that's my experience whenever I have encountered low nitrates. This is the brand of nitrates (potassium nitrates) that I dose. I have a calculator that I made, but it requires a little work on your part to dial in. Let me know if you'd like me to walk you through that process.

greenleafaquariums.com/products/potassium-nitrate-kno3-1lb-bag.html
 
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SCUBAFreaky

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Regardless of this issue, you're running very low nitrates. Your phosphates are high too, but not terribly crazy. It seems counter intuitive, but in the past, with nitrates as low as yours and phosphates as high as yours are, you're best bet to get both back into check is to dose nitrates.

According to the Redfield ratio, chlorophyll will consume nitrates and phosphates at a 16:1 ratio, respectively. Your algae and coral are nitrate-prohibited, more than likely, which doesn't allow them to produce carbohydrates, amino acids, etc via photosynthesis as food for your corals because they don't have enough nitrates to complete the process. Your phosphates should drop, and nitrates obviously raise, if you dose nitrates.

At least, that's my experience whenever I have encountered low nitrates. This is the brand of nitrates (potassium nitrates) that I dose. I have a calculator that I made, but it requires a little work on your part to dial in. Let me know if you'd like me to walk you through that process.

greenleafaquariums.com/products/potassium-nitrate-kno3-1lb-bag.html
It is interesting that you say that my phosphates are too high. The levels being at 0.75 is the lowest that they have been, ever. Usually they run between 0.8 and 1.0 depending on the frequency of my water changes. I've never heard of the Redfield ratio so maybe that's piece that I am totally missing! I would love some help getting this back into balance! Thank Cody!
 

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It is interesting that you say that my phosphates are too high. The levels being at 0.75 is the lowest that they have been, ever. Usually they run between 0.8 and 1.0 depending on the frequency of my water changes. I've never heard of the Redfield ratio so maybe that's piece that I am totally missing! I would love some help getting this back into balance! Thank Cody!
Yeah, you can run them that high, but it's not my personal comfort zone. I tend to have the best results/least algae growth in the NO3 5-10ppm and PO4 .03-.06 range. Order in some of the potassium nitrate that I linked you and I can walk you through it on the phone. You'll need a spare doser head though, just to make your life easier. I use that brand because it works well and is cheap. One of those $3 bags will last you a year, dang near. And if my recommendation doesn't work, then I will owe you some green mushrooms. They would be a nice addition to your tank :)
 
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Order in some of the potassium nitrate that I linked you and I can walk you through it on the phone. You'll need a spare doser head though, just to make your life easier.
The order has been placed. Should be here Wednesday. And I do have a spare doser head. It was meant for calcium but it is currently not being used.

And if my recommendation doesn't work, then I will owe you some green mushrooms. They would be a nice addition to your tank :)
I was rolling on the floor on that one! Too funny!!! Thanks again Cody!
 

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According to the Redfield ratio, chlorophyll will consume nitrates and phosphates at a 16:1 ratio, respectively. Your algae and coral are nitrate-prohibited, more than likely, which doesn't allow them to produce carbohydrates, amino acids, etc via photosynthesis as food for your corals because they don't have enough nitrates to complete the process. Your phosphates should drop, and nitrates obviously raise, if you dose nitrates.

+1000% on this. I can't believe more discussion doesn't go on regarding this. And don't forget the third component once you get the other two right... and that is carbon.
 

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+1000% on this. I can't believe more discussion doesn't go on regarding this. And don't forget the third component once you get the other two right... and that is carbon.
Yeah I typically don’t discuss the carbon aspect as much as I should. I’ve never experienced that being a limiting factor, but it’s possible. Nothing a few shots of vodka can’t fix. You could even put the vodka in the water too :D :cool:
 

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Amen brother. Shot for me, two shots for the fish (I have a lot of fish). Vodka shots all around!!!

Carbon has always been my limiting factor. My nitrates run around 20-30ppm and PO4 around .29 or so. Those def aren't limiting factors in my tank. When I add carbon, my tank explodes. Without it...meh...But surprise, the carbon makes my nitrates and phosphates drop.
 
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Ok, I just looked at your first post again and your PO4 is .75 ppm? Yea, that's high even for my liking. I have had mine get to .6 before and my corals didn't like it at all. I'd get that PO4 down manually for now. IMO, even if you dose nitrates (which you obviously need), it might take some time (like a long time) to get that much PO4 down.

I don't think your corals are starving, they're pissed at the high phosphates (or pissed at you for letting them get that high).

Your rock will store PO4 so as you lower it, more will come out of the rock. The only realistic way to get that much down is with GFO and water changes.

So I'd run some GFO for a bit. I do that on occasion (temporarily) when my PO4 gets out there ahead of my nitrates. I take mine offline when they get back to the .20-.30 ppm range, which is where I like them. I should have caught that on the first read but I thought it said .075, not .75.
 

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Ok, I just looked at your first post again and your PO4 is .75 ppm? Yea, that's high even for my liking. I have had mine get to .6 before and my corals didn't like it at all. I'd get that PO4 down manually for now. IMO, even if you dose nitrates (which you obviously need), it might take some time (like a long time) to get that much PO4 down.

I don't think your corals are starving, they're pissed at the high phosphates (or pissed at you for letting them get that high).

Your rock will store PO4 so as you lower it, more will come out of the rock. The only realistic way to get that much down is with GFO and water changes.

So I'd run some GFO for a bit. I do that on occasion (temporarily) when my PO4 gets out there ahead of my nitrates. I take mine offline when they get back to the .20-.30 ppm range, which is where I like them. I should have caught that on the first read but I thought it said .075, not .75.
Yeah the phosphates leeching into the rock is a good point. Slipped my mind. And yeah, I’d run GFO but be gentle with it. Ask @gregg what happens whenever you drop the back end out of the phosphates. Home wrecker colonies die over night.
 
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Ok, I just looked at your first post again and your PO4 is .75 ppm? Yea, that's high even for my liking. I have had mine get to .6 before and my corals didn't like it at all. I'd get that PO4 down manually for now. IMO, even if you dose nitrates (which you obviously need), it might take some time (like a long time) to get that much PO4 down.
I hear you and Cody and I knew folks would have an issue with how high my phosphates are. But here's my struggle, 0.75 ppm is the lowest my phosphates have been since I started adding corals to the tank back in March. Believe it or not the phosphates were much higher back in March. Here's the thing, all of my corals have been doing excellent until the bottom dropped out of the nitrates. So I don't think the issue with the tissue recession of my LPS is due to the phosphates, but really due to the low nitrates. All that said, at the end of August I started back up with weekly 20% water changes to slowly bring my phosphates to a more community accepted level. But at the end of the day my corals were not unhappy with the phosphates being that high. I'm a strong believer that if you have a high nutrient tank you can't have long, very intense lighting periods. The converse is also is true, if you have a low nutrient tank, your coral can handle longer, more intense lighting. This why my halides are only on for 5 hours. I do keep the T5s and blue LEDs on for longer though.

Your rock will store PO4 so as you lower it, more will come out of the rock.
I absolutely agree with this statement and believe this is why the phosphates are really so high. This is actually why I've been doing the weekly water changes.

I will get my nitrates under control as Cody has suggested and then resume the water changes to continue to slowly bring the phosphates down. I've used GFO in the past. I believe it was one of many factors...and errors on my part, of why I lost all of my corals in 2015. I'm am going to stay with the water changes for now and see how that goes.

James and Cody, thank you for the awesome discussion. Truly. This is why I came back to MARSH actually to help me with problems like this so I can have a better chance at being successful this time. I never would have guessed in a million years that my nitrates were this low.
 

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I hear you and Cody and I knew folks would have an issue with how high my phosphates are. But here's my struggle, 0.75 ppm is the lowest my phosphates have been since I started adding corals to the tank back in March. Believe it or not the phosphates were much higher back in March. Here's the thing, all of my corals have been doing excellent until the bottom dropped out of the nitrates. So I don't think the issue with the tissue recession of my LPS is due to the phosphates, but really due to the low nitrates. All that said, at the end of August I started back up with weekly 20% water changes to slowly bring my phosphates to a more community accepted level. But at the end of the day my corals were not unhappy with the phosphates being that high. I'm a strong believer that if you have a high nutrient tank you can't have long, very intense lighting periods. The converse is also is true, if you have a low nutrient tank, your coral can handle longer, more intense lighting. This why my halides are only on for 5 hours. I do keep the T5s and blue LEDs on for longer though.


I absolutely agree with this statement and believe this is why the phosphates are really so high. This is actually why I've been doing the weekly water changes.

I will get my nitrates under control as Cody has suggested and then resume the water changes to continue to slowly bring the phosphates down. I've used GFO in the past. I believe it was one of many factors...and errors on my part, of why I lost all of my corals in 2015. I'm am going to stay with the water changes for now and see how that goes.

James and Cody, thank you for the awesome discussion. Truly. This is why I came back to MARSH actually to help me with problems like this so I can have a better chance at being successful this time. I never would have guessed in a million years that my nitrates were this low.
Dose nitrates while doing water changes. That will allow you to figure out your baseline for dosing while doing water changes, which you should be doing regularly anyways.

As far as your theory on nutrient and lighting levels, let me describe an analogy. This is a story that's built around sps, but I feel it applies to all corals. The notion that softies or lps like "dirtier" tanks is a theory that I've never experience any evidence to support. All corals evolved for thousands of years to exist in similar water parameters. There are no zoa oceans, lps oceans, nor sps oceans. I build all of my tanks around sps, have mixed tanks, and everything thrives, minus the unexplained hiccup every year or two, pest, or the odd-ball picky coral.

Your corals are a boat without a manual throttle. The throttle is only activated when the sun shines. The sun shine turns the engines on.

The gas for this boat HAS to be a 16:1 ratio for nitrates to phosphates, respectively (let's exclude carbon for now) or the engine will stall out.

Now, as the sun shines higher and brighter, it engages this engine of ours even more. And what does this highly engaged engine need to produce power? More fuel (nitrates, phosphates, and carbon). When this engine stalls out it can't produce the power to move the boat anymore (aka produce the carbohydrates, proteins, amino acids, etc that the coral needs to thrive and grow).
 

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Also, I'm going to teach you how to bake a lasagna. If I tell you that you should cook it at 350 degrees, then what's your next question?

"How long?" is the correct question. When people talk about PAR, which is a measurement of photon radiation hitting a square inch per second (correct me if my units are off), you are talking about the temperature of the oven. How long should we cook the sucker for though? I can run higher PAR for a shorter time, or lower PAR for a longer time and effectively deliver the same amount of throttle to our analogous boat engine.

My personal opinion/experience of higher nutrients needs lower light, and vise versus, doesn't check out. You need adequate nutrients to keep the coral engines running but not enough to grow algae, and that's it.

What you need to be looking at is DLI (daily light interval) in relationship to your nutrient levels. I shoot for 10-12 DLI with 5-10ppm NO3 and .03-.06ppm PO4. That's a good pocket for coral growth and algae reduction. The more intense you can run your lights for a shorter photo-period, the less algae you will get, or so the studies say. I run mine for 8 hours a day, adjusted for when I'm awake and viewing my tank.
 

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I know it didn't cause the original problem, but isn't that too much of an alk increase all at once?
 

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Also, I'm going to teach you how to bake a lasagna. If I tell you that you should cook it at 350 degrees, then what's your next question?

"How long?" is the correct question. When people talk about PAR, which is a measurement of photon radiation hitting a square inch per second (correct me if my units are off), you are talking about the temperature of the oven. How long should we cook the sucker for though? I can run higher PAR for a shorter time, or lower PAR for a longer time and effectively deliver the same amount of throttle to our analogous boat engine.

My personal opinion/experience of higher nutrients needs lower light, and vise versus, doesn't check out. You need adequate nutrients to keep the coral engines running but not enough to grow algae, and that's it.

What you need to be looking at is DLI (daily light interval) in relationship to your nutrient levels. I shoot for 10-12 DLI with 5-10ppm NO3 and .03-.06ppm PO4. That's a good pocket for coral growth and algae reduction. The more intense you can run your lights for a shorter photo-period, the less algae you will get, or so the studies say. I run mine for 8 hours a day, adjusted for when I'm awake and viewing my tank.

Did you mean Daily Light Integral?



also attached

from the above source:
Daily Light Integral (DLI) is the amount of PAR received each day as a function of light intensity (instantaneous light: μmol·m-2·s-1) and duration (day). It is expressed as moles of light (mol) per square meter (m-2) per day (d-1), or: mol·m-2·d-1 (moles per day). The DLI concept is like a rain gauge. Just as a rain gauge collects the total rain in a particular location over a period of time, so DLI measures the total amount of PAR received in a day. Greenhouse growers can use light meters to measure the number of light photons that accumulate in a square meter over a 24-hour period.

 

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Cody

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Did you mean Daily Light Integral?



also attached

from the above source:
Daily Light Integral (DLI) is the amount of PAR received each day as a function of light intensity (instantaneous light: μmol·m-2·s-1) and duration (day). It is expressed as moles of light (mol) per square meter (m-2) per day (d-1), or: mol·m-2·d-1 (moles per day). The DLI concept is like a rain gauge. Just as a rain gauge collects the total rain in a particular location over a period of time, so DLI measures the total amount of PAR received in a day. Greenhouse growers can use light meters to measure the number of light photons that accumulate in a square meter over a 24-hour period.

Ah shoot. Yeah, I meant integral. Good catch!
 

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This is what you and I were talking about a few weeks back. It makes sense. I like the cooking reference (you) and the rain gauge reference (purdue).
 
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I'm still struggling with some sort of water chemistry issue. I've been able to get the nitrate levels up via dosing (thanks @Cody!) but not all of my corals have returned to what I consider normal. Looks like I've stopped the dying of my candy canes but they are still not completely happy. I did end up losing one of my acan enchinatas though. Here are my latest tank parameters as tested yesterday 2 days after a 20% water change:

  • Alk: 9.5 dKH (Hanna Checker)
  • Calcium: 400 ppm (Red Sea)
  • Magnesium: 1560 ppm (Red Sea) This value went up substantially without dosing Mag. Weird. Fresh saltwater for the water change was tested to be 1440 ppm.
  • Phosphate: 1.02 ppm (Hanna Checker)
  • Nitrate: 8.9 ppm (Hanna Checker)
  • Salinity: 1.026
  • Temp: 78.9 deg F
  • pH: 8.14
  • RODI TDS: 1 ppm

So what I consider to be my canary coral is a bird of paradise birdsnest. It was the first coral to start showing signs of being unhappy a couple of weeks ago by no longer extending its polyps. I have 3 acros that look as happy as happy can be though but the birdsnest still seems unhappy even with the elevation of nitrates. What is really concerning me now is that about a third of my zoas have closed up and are starting to shrink. Dang it! My JF Yellow Bandit chalice is starting show signs of major trouble as well. Several days ago one of it's "eyes" is now missing and you can see the skeleton where the eye once was. It's like something ate it.

I know my phosphates are super high. All of my corals were happy for months with the phosphate being in this range. I know my corals will be happier with lower phosphates but I don't think my phosphate level is the reason why my zoas, candy canes, birdsnest, and chalice are unhappy. Something else seems to be going on that I can't figure out and water changes don't seem to be correcting whatever the issue is. I'm stumped!

All that said the plan was to get my nitrates maintained between 5 and 10 ppm and start lowering phosphates via water changes. If I don't do a weekly 20% water change the phosphates seem to go up pretty quickly. One thing that I have forgotten to mention is that when I first discovered my low nitrate levels I reduced the lighting time of my algae scrubber from 14 hours down to 2 hours a night in attempt to help raise my nitrate levels. It was left at 2 hours for about a week until I noticed my phosphates going up so I have since corrected that mistake. The algae scrubber is back to 14 hours a night and has been that way for over a week now.

It should also be noted that I don't currently run a protein skimmer. I just use a filter sock which gets replaced weekly. I do have a skimmer that I can install if there is a thought a skimmer is needed but I will need to rearrange some pumps in my sump though to accommodate the skimmer. I also have a media reactor that could be used for GFO and/or charcoal but both my GFO and charcoal media is over 5 years old. I will need to get fresh media if bringing the media reactor online is one of my next steps. Also, could my UV filter be a factor in this at all? I brought it online the first part of September.

So. I could really use some help brainstorming what my next troubleshooting steps should be at this point. Whatever this issue is really has me stumped!
 
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