GFO Reactor- Contact Time vs Flow Rate- which drops PO4 faster? (1 Viewer)

[Reefahholic]

This is gonna be fun. So here are the questions:

1. Will a slower flow rate through the media allow more contact time and drop PO4 in the total system volume faster?

2. Will a faster flow rate through the media drop PO4 in total system volume faster?

Notice I said "total system volume." If I measure PO4 level at the reactor exit/output, will it be higher or lower with the faster or slower flow rates?

Will a faster flow rate produce a higher PO4 reading at the reactor exit/outlet, but yet "out-run" a lower PO4 reading with a slower flow rate over time? Can overall volume through a reactor produce a lower number and out preform contact time in the long run?

I hope I didn't confuse anybody. I think I'll just make this a poll and do my own experiment. I'll post my findings.

All opinions and theories welcomed and appreciated.

 

[Clownfish Chris]

I have no insight to your questions and am interested in other's input. I believe there is another question that should also be asked: What is the fastest that phosphates can safely be dropped?

 

[Reefahholic]

I have no insight to your questions and am interested in other's input. I believe there is another question that should also be asked: What is the fastest that phosphates can safely be dropped?

I'm qurious as to what my testing results will be.

I've heard that changes of about 0.05 is safe. Also heard that nems will start walking at 0.06-0.07.

Phosphate RX mentions not to drop more than .5 in 24 hrs.

Notice the difference of 0.05 to .5

I can tell you right now that I'm swinging more than .1 about everyday and more than .2 and I see things start looking like crap.

I think this will be different with each tank and its stability level. A stable tank of 3 years can take a bigger punch than a immature tank of 3 months like mine.

 

[Reefahholic]

Looks like nobody knows the answer to this one. . I'll let you guys know soon.


One thing is certain, I'm spanking that PO4 daily and it's spanking me back daily.

I'm watching and waiting for the PO4 leeching to finally equilibrate.

Seems like a never ending battle! Never again will I add any rock without nuking the crap out of it with Lanthanum in a vat.

Gotta love reefing!

 

[Wingnut]

I run GFO 24/7 and I have found in my system which total volume is around 110 gallons , it depends on how much media I put in the reactor , I run and undersized reactor with out 2 inches of media in it and tumble it like a pot of boiling water just as it is starting boil and it keeps my Po4 between .03 and .05 when it hits .07 it is time to change media. I did add more media once and it drop my Po4 from .07 to .00 in 24 hours. So for me it is the amount of media at a slow tumble.

 

[reefling]

You should not need GFO all the time, unless something us broken. Just run an algae scrubber.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

 

[reefling]

Flow rate is kinda fixed tho. Too low and it turns s into a rock. Too much and it's pulverized. The amount of media or surface area is really the most controllable part.

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[Wingnut]

I agree the amount of media is most important, and finding the right tumble. The reason I run GFO all the time is my tank was purchased used and I had a lot higher Po4 than it is now it took several months to get it where it is , I am not sure if anything is wrong , I have no algae and fish and corals are growing well , I keep Po4 around .05 and No3 around 5 ppm, it seems to work for my system.

 

[Reefahholic]

I know more media is more affective than less.

But...if running the same amount of media with low flow through the media vs high flow is the question.

My new Bashsea reactors are able to hold both carbon and GFO tight in the reactor without tumbling the media. So I can run high flow through the media without grinding it up. This goes back to the question of contact time/ low flow vs more water volume through the media with high flow. Which will drop PO4 faster or slower?

 

[TX_Punisher]

I know more media is more affective than less.

But...if running the same amount of media with low flow through the media vs high flow is the question.

My new Bashsea reactors are able to hold both carbon and GFO tight in the reactor without tumbling the media. So I can run high flow through the media without grinding it up. This goes back to the question of contact time/ low flow vs more water volume through the media with high flow. Which will drop PO4 faster or slower?

How much media are you running and which gfo? I have those reactors now too. Found them on eBay for 20% off. Got two. They're largest ones I believe. I should have around 180 gallons of water volume.

 

[Reefahholic]

How much media are you running and which gfo? I have those reactors now too. Found them on eBay for 20% off. Got two. They're largest ones I believe. I should have around 180 gallons of water volume.

The general rule of thumb for GFO is to start with 1 tbs per 8 gallons of water for the first 4-8 weeks if you have never run it in the tank before.

16 tbs = 1 cup.

After the initial 4-8 weeks, you can bump up to double the dose. 2 tbs per 8 gallons.

So that's 1 cup to 128/G's initially and then 1 cup to 64 gallons after the tank adjusts in 4-8 weeks.

I really don't go by this though. I use about 1 cup to 50 gallons of water. So for my total volume of 140 gallons... I use about 2-3/4 cups. I think it's important to test the PO4 during this time. I test about every 8-12 hrs to see how it's affecting my system.

I think contact time does play an important role with media, but also believe the total volume ran through that media can out perform the low flow contact time theory.

Our Bashsea reactors can hold the media in place and allow us to send high flow rates through the media. So logically the media is always in contact with my tank water at a much faster flow rate which means the water is getting more exposure to the media.

IMO and based off personal experience and a lot of documented testing....here's my conclusions.

More media = More control of PO4

Higher flow rates = more water exposure to media and will out perform the "low flow" = "more contact time" is better theory." Think about it...what good is low flow and contact time if your only cleaning 5 GPH and I'm cleaning 100 GPH. Logically, my PO4 will drop faster because I'm getting 19x more water volume through the media. So even if my method is not as affective, I will still out run the other method in the long run because my volume is much larger and it can't avoid the affects of GFO when passing through it. Think of it like this. If you filled two reactors full. One with Chelated Copper and the other with GAC. Which would you want running with less volume through the canister. Exactly....the first thing you'd be thinking is OMG, turn the Copper reactor off! But.....WHAT IF YOU COULDN'T, and the only options were to slow the flow to 20% or increase to 80%. Would you increase to 80%? I wouldn't!! lol. One thing that needs to be clarified is that if you have a reactor that's tumbling your media, then you need to run low flow. Just enough to tumble the media slightly. Otherwise you will grind it up to sludge. I've actually tested my output when I had run too high a flow rate and tumbled the media too much (where it was ground up), and the water exiting the reactor was reading a higher PO4 level than the tank! It was leeching PO4 back to the system from the exhausted ground up media. Yes it's no myth.

Anybody disagree with this? If so way>? Lets dialogue.

 

[Reefahholic]

How much media are you running and which gfo? I have those reactors now too. Found them on eBay for 20% off. Got two. They're largest ones I believe. I should have around 180 gallons of water volume.

One other thing....If this is a new tank...I would not run GFO or GAC for at least 2-3 months. Let the tank do it's thing unless your rocks are leeching! lol

 

[rishma]

Fun experiment. Kind of like the recirculating skimmer question. I can't play. I always run GFO with carbon passively. I'm low tech.

 

[TX_Punisher]

One other thing....If this is a new tank...I would not run GFO or GAC for at least 2-3 months. Let the tank do it's thing unless your rocks are leeching! lol

Its curing in brutes with lc added as I type. Hope to have 2 mos cure time total from dry Pukani.

 

[Reefahholic]

Its curing in brutes with lc added as I type. Hope to have 2 mos cure time total from dry Pukani.

Smart move. How dirty was it? You can do a Muriatic Acid bath first if you need to. If you go that route, I think it will drastically decrease your cure time unless the rock isn't that dirty. Pics would be great so we can assess. Also, if you to the Muriatic Acid, make sure to stir it good after it's added to the vat. I've had problems in the past just pouring it into the water after the rock was already in. The Acid stated eating different parts of the rock more than other parts where it was more concentrated. I'd definetely pour your Acid first- then stir it well- then add the rock. It will bubble like it's in peroxide and eat a thin outer layer of the rock off. This will remove a lot of organic matter. Just make sure you wear thick chemical gloves and a 3M with vapor filters.

You can really NUKE the rock in a brute, vat, stock tank, etc. Do it good when it's out of the tank and you will not have issues (or minimal issues) later down the road.

Just make sure you have a Hanna ULR and change the water as it gets funky. Test the water during the whole process and keep a log. I'd go to Tractor supply and pickup a Rubbermaid Stock Tank and skim the water too. You can set up the skimmer on a plastic milk crate or something similar to get the correct water level for the skimmer. Believe me, the water will get funky with Pukani. That rock has a lot of organic matter in and on it.

Document the process with pics if you can so other new reefers here can learn.

 

[Reefahholic]

This was from a thread back in 2012 on RC. A friend of mine was curing BRS Pukani and I was curing Marco Rock. We both used Lanthanum Chloride. Another guy got inspired at posted some good documentation. This should help you a lot.

Here are his results:

I figured I would chime in on this and share my experience. After reading this thread and talking with TKEracer, I decided to give this method a go and I couldn't be more pleased with the results. I purchased 70lbs of dry pukani rock from BRS, a Hanna 736 Checker, and a bottle of SeaKlear. To start I hosed the rock off the best I could and tossed it in a spare sump with newly mixed saltwater. Also in the sump I had (2) koralia's for flow and my SRO2000 skimmer. below are my results

11-24-16: Started curing rock
12-01-16: After letting the rock sit for a week I tested for the first time. reading was off the charts (200ppb) so I dosed 10ml LaCl
12-2-16: After just 1 dose, the reading dropped to 55ppb - Dosed 10ml
12-4-16: Tested 33ppb - At this point the water was very yellow and had a decent smell to it so I swished the rocks off in RODI and did a 100% WC
12-6-16: Tested 44ppb - Dosed 10ml
12-8-16: Tested 51ppb - Dosed 10ml
12-10-16: Tested 43ppb - Dosed 15ml
12-12-16: Tested 50ppb - Dosed 15ml
12-14-16: Tested 50ppb - Dosed 20ml
12-16-16: Tested 44ppb - Dosed 30ml
12-18-16: Tested 36ppb - Dosed 20ml
12-23-16: Tested 35ppb - Dosed 20ml
12-25-16: Tested 47ppb - Dosed 30ml
12-27-16: Tested 35ppb - Dosed 30ml
12-18-16: Tested 40ppb - Dosed 30ml
1-1-17: Tested 40ppb - Dosed 30ml
1-3-17: Tested 31ppb - Dosed 30ml
1-7-17: Tested 35ppb - Dosed 20ml
1-8-17: By this point pretty much everything in the sump was very covered in precipitate. Again I swished the rocks really good in RODI, rinsed the sump, and refilled.
1-9-17: Tested 27ppb - Dosed 15ml
1-10-17: Tested 26ppb - Dosed 15ml
1-12-17: Tested 32ppb - Dosed 20ml
1-14-17: Tested 27ppb - Stopped dosing to see what numbers would do.
1-15-17: Tested 28ppb - Again, no dose
1-16-17: Tested 27ppb - Again, no dose

So I think I've reached a stage where the LaCl is no longer lowering it beyond the .08-.09ppm range. My plan is to rinse the rock and sump one more time and switch to GFO and begin cycling the rock in my new DT! I feel like this method was a breeze! it only took a few months, was super cheap and required very little work (2x100% water changes...).

 

[PSXerholic]

Hmmmmmmm

I would have just have used first some HighCapacity GFOHQ and some Red Sea Reef Spec to strip the **************** outta the tank and I bet the tank would be now at 20ppb with no chemicals...............but that's just me ;-)
Of course not more then 0.1ppm per day.

Make sure you buy a Triton test to measure Li concentration.
Unique corals is selling Pantha Rhei Pantha Lith absorber for I guess $50 for the small bottles to get that out, plus some Kg's of activated carbon.


The boys and their chemical weapons all the time............

Let me know if the next test kit measures high Li please !!! Honestly not sure if that is a side effect.

-Andre

 

[Reefahholic]

Hmmmmmmm

I would have just have used first some HighCapacity GFOHQ and some Red Sea Reef Spec to strip the **************** outta the tank and I bet the tank would be now at 20ppb with no chemicals...............but that's just me ;-)
Of course not more then 0.1ppm per day.

Make sure you buy a Triton test to measure Li concentration.
Unique corals is selling Pantha Rhei Pantha Lith absorber for I guess $50 for the small bottles to get that out, plus some Kg's of activated carbon.


The boys and their chemical weapons all the time............

Let me know if the next test kit measures high Li please !!! Honestly not sure if that is a side effect.

-Andre

I'm Don't think it's gonna measure high. I have a Gigantea Anemone that I saved and his tents are growing longer each day now and they're super sensitive to anything out of the norm. I'll be ordering quite a few Triton tests to see how the tank is doing once it stops leeching for good. Seems the levels are starting to come down a bit, so i'm assuming it on it's way out. We'll see. Acro's are starting to get a little color back. My brown slimers are now light brown slimers and i'm hoping to see some green soon.


Once I get below 0.1 I'll be throwing a PO4 Party at my house!!

 

[TX_Punisher]

I know there is phosphate and there's no rush so I'm not overly concerned with testing. I performed about a 20% wc yesterday and did som rinsing. Noticed a lot of sloughing. It seems it took about 3-4 weeks to get to this point. I've dosed 20+ ml weekly. This week I'll be performing a 100% change with rinsing then I'll start testing thru may. Still have some lc so I'll continue dosing. I'll try to document here soon. I noticed more die off and organic material yesterday falling off the rock then ever before. Honestly it didn't look bad when I initially started.

 

[Reefahholic]

I know there is phosphate and there's no rush so I'm not overly concerned with testing. I performed about a 20% wc yesterday and did som rinsing. Noticed a lot of sloughing. It seems it took about 3-4 weeks to get to this point. I've dosed 20+ ml weekly. This week I'll be performing a 100% change with rinsing then I'll start testing thru may. Still have some lc so I'll continue dosing. I'll try to document here soon. I noticed more die off and organic material yesterday falling off the rock then ever before. Honestly it didn't look bad when I initially started.

Yes...water changes are good. Keep rinsing the rocks off. Get the funk out!

I'd increase the dose. Nuke it!

What's the total volume of the vat and how many lbs of LR?