My new QT treatment logic (1 Viewer)

[Reefahholic]

So now I'm changing my game plan on most new arrivals. I've been dosing CP (40mg) during TTM coupled with Prazipro.


I feel it's about the safest route to go considering that nearly all fish I've seen lately have a Parasite, Flukes, Bacterial infection, Viral infection, etc, etc. We know that nothing can rid a Virus, but for almost everything else, we can treat it. That being said...TTM will get every fish with ICH. CP "should" cover ICH, Velvet, Brook, Uronema. Prazipro "should" get Flukes/most worms, and internal parasites. It's been said that CP may even treat Turbellarian worms that were able to tolerate Prazipro treatments at the Georgia Aquarium.


So just think...right there you eliminate so many potential issues from infecting/entering your display.


BUT wait....it gets better.....


But running CP with TTM, you increase your chances of a successful Tank Transfer Method by more than 50%. That's right! Nip it in the butt! ICH is the #1 most annoying parasite we all have to deal with. Even those in the freshwater hobby.


When you dose CP, you basically prevent any Theronts or Dinospores from landing on the fish. So logically, the tank transfer method may be shorter in the future. Why? Because we know that the Trophont will normally spend 3-7 days (depending on temp) feeding on the fish. Then it drops off. So if the CP prevents any further Theronts or Dinospores from landing on the fish, with more testing, we may be able to reduce the amount of transfers done. This will save time, money, headache, and most important.....decrease stress on the fish.

 

[FarmerTy]

There does seem to be a higher occurrence of diseased fishes coming in from wholesalers these days in my opinion.

Just some initial thoughts on the method for discussion Reefholic.

-CP can be an appetite suppressant for some fish so I prefer just going with TTM unless signs of marine velvet or brooklynella are apparent
-combining the two won't really give you 50% more success, there's really no way to quantify that accurately so not sure where you got that number
-TTM at minimum requires 3 transfers of 3 days a piece, with the 4th being insurance just in case due to the 3-7 days of attachment. In my opinion, adding CP is great additional insurance but the full TTM schedule is best just completed as you are really only shorting one transfer and is that really worth the risk?
-dinospores don't attach to fish, if they did, we'd be in a whole heap of trouble with the TTM as its whole basis is shorting out the life cycle by eliminating the dinospore residence phase of life
-ich in my opinion is the one disease I want from new fish if I had to choose one it came with. Its easily treatable, doesn't kill fast, and most fish can live in ich-maintained systems their entire lives and have no issues. Its the marine velvet and bacterial infections I want none of!

Great post to stir up discussion on fish QT and treatment Reefaholic! I hope that many will take the same passion you have for QT and treatment and realize they are always just one fish addition away from wiping out their whole system.

 

[Reefahholic]

The issue right now is that there's not enough studies out. I'm very confident that in the future we can eliminate 1 transfer if not 2.

We need more studies on temp. I'm fixing to get a video scope and will start my own studies shortly. I'll document exactly what meds are used, the different temps I try, and everything that's done. Over time I'm confident I can establish a pattern as I'll be able to see and identify the parasites and record it with HD video for you guys to see as well. There will be no debates. A lot of reefers want to debate things, but they have no video, pictures, or any evidence to back up their claims. Video documention combined with pictures is the way to go if people want others to listen and believe what they say.

Looking at the 3-7 days....logically the fish should only need 7 days. Only 2 transfers. The third (after 7 days) will be the end of treatment. So I don't think it's fair to count that one as a real transfer. You're just going the 1 extra day to hit the 7 day mark.

Say the fish go in on Monday. You transfer on Thursday. Then on Sunday. The next day they could actually be done. Total time....7 full days. Not only can this be done with CP, but also Copper. Both will prevent more parasites from landing on the fish and eliminate the life cycle much faster. If the fish came from a known tank without Velvet and has already been treated for internal parasites...technically the fish could go into the DT only as little as 8 days. WOW! Tell me that wouldn't be nice. Again, a bit more studying needs to be done.

I agree that ICH is fairly easy to manage with proper nutrition and stable water chemistry. Honestly though, ICH kills more fish than Velvet every year because it's the most common parasite we see in both the fresh and saltwater hobbies.

You constantly hear this on the forums:
"My fish are mysteriously dying and I don't know why." "There are no signs or symptoms." IMO this can usually be linked to ICH. Not every time, but most of the time. That's because ICH can remain in the gills undetected with almost zero symptoms.

Eliminating only 1 transfer or possibly 2 is huge for me. Our time is valuable and the headache of QT'ing and treating fish any longer then I have to is a pain in the rear.

Just a thought...

 

[FarmerTy]

Discussions are always great to further facilitate the sharing of knowledge and I always appreciate your ability to spur discussion.

Just my thoughts, and I'm not the definitive word on anything but just from our knowledge from actual studies that theronts can attach to the fish on average from 3-7 days, and with TTM requiring fish be transferred by 72 hrs, simple math dictates you will always have 3 transfers at minimum. My opinion is what's one more transfer to ensure they don't have ich at that point?

I'm not sure what HD video is going to show you from a disease perspective other than external parasites. Like you mentioned, ich can reside in the gills and show no external systems so not sure what an HD video of a fish without cysts is going to tell you definitively other than it isn't showing external symptoms, but very well could be harboring theronts in its gills.

Where do you get facts like ich kills more fish than velvet each year? Common doesn't automatically equal fatal. The common cold is by definition... common... doesn't mean it kills more people than any other disease. While being common does give a disease the higher opportunity to cause more deaths, it doesn't inherently mean that the pure state of being more abundant means it causes a higher mortality rate.

Ich killing via suffocation of the gills while I'm sure occurs, but it normally would take a pretty massive population of ich to achieve this. I don't see how a fish requiring lots of ich to suffocate it by covering its gills would not show a single cyst on its exterior. With a population that high, you would almost have to show equally high numbers of cysts on the exterior of the fish.

Those unexplained deaths to me are either cyanide, stress, or marine velvet, which the tiny diniflaggelates could suffocate a fish very rapidly with the amazing reproductivr rates of dinos... Most have experienced this with just having dinos in your tank. Blow it away, it comes back that night. Hit it with peroxide, and presto, back in the morning. So you could see how marine velvet is such a more efficient and often unnoticed killer, more so than ich.

I would be to differ that more fish die of improper acclimation, improper introduction to the current fish population, marine velvet, flukes, and bacterial infections than ich in my opinion. But that's just my opinion.

I think that plenty of powder blue tangs and Achilles tangs die every year to ich though. That I'll agree 100% to.

Just a quick thought on trying to get fish into your display tank in your desired 7 days. Maybe this idea works, maybe you stumble onto something great with just 7 days to rid the fish of ich... Keep in mind that its the only thing you've cured it of with this methodology.

Now you have a brand new fish thats been with you for only 7 days. You have no idea if its carrying marine velvet. You have no idea if it has the upstarts of a very contagious bacterial infection... Both of which are usually the culprits of whole tank deaths in a couple of days. Ich takes a long time to reproduce into numbers that can wipe out an entire tank... We know full well it can take up to 45+ days for the next generation alone. But marine velvet and bacteria reproduce so quickly that it can kill your entire tank in a day or two.

So let's say you eliminated ich from your new fish in 7 days and toss him in the tank. There are decent odds it could carry marine velvet or a deadly bacterial infection into your tank still and kill everything.

Also, QT is also for acclimating the fish to captive conditions and teaching it how to eat and what to eat. While some fish will readily eat in 7 days, a lot won't as well. So you have to think about the other reasons you QT... Its not really about ich at all... Or at least not only ich.

Just some thoughts. I hope you don't feel like I'm tearing apart your idea but my previous career has me hardwired to analyze potential pitfalls of any plan and I wanted to share what they are so perhaps you come up with the ultimate plan for QT that we can all follow.

 

[Reefahholic]

I welcome any dialogue. My mind is also quick to analyze potential problems or possible failures. I encourage any and all comments both good or bad. Some of the concerns you had I already mentioned above.

Example:
You said..." Now you have a brand new fish that's been with you for only 7 days. You have no idea if its carrying marine velvet. You have no idea if it has the upstarts of a very contagious bacterial infection..."

I already mentioned this... "If the fish came from a known tank without Velvet and has already been treated for internal parasites...technically the fish could go into the DT only as little as 8 days." (You can add bacterial infection to this list)

3 full transfers periods of 72 hrs = 9 days. Technically you wouldn't need 9 days. You only need 7. I have a feeling that temp will play a huge role in the Theront contact time with the fish, but like I previously mentioned, we lack the research in different temps and how it affects marine ICH. I'd be willing to bet a lot of money that higher temps drastically speed up the life cycle just as it does in FW. I think we'll see this in the very near future as more studies are completed.

As far as internal vs external, that's not an issue. Even in the presence of extreme external signs and symptoms, the best diagnostic tool is microscopic examination. Skin scrapings, gill clippings, and fin clippings will quickly identify our culprit. Most people never take it that far though.

I did read somewhere that ICH was the #1 killer of marine parasites due to it's habitual attacks in reef aquaria that were influenced by environmental triggers- which basically comes down to the fish/fishes being stressed. This usually leads to starvation (aka mysterious fish deaths) If I can find that article, I'll post it for you. I do think Velvet would take the cake if it were more common. However...lately it seems to be running a very close race.

One thing I can tell you from past experiences is about every-time I've personally had Velvet, it popped up around the 3 week mark. Plus it kills super fast. I'm definitely more scared of Velvet than ICH. It can't be managed. One time- I did see it completely cover and wreck a tang I had in a 5/G. The number of dinospores was nothing short of shocking. Imagine coming across a huge Fire Ant mound. Then you poke it in several spots with a stick and throw a piece of bacon in the middle. This was literally how this fish look. COVERED. It killed the fish in less than 24 hours. Just one Tomont can divide repeatedly and have 250+ offspring waiting on breakfast. I did notice that the dinospores dropped off at night, and at that time I thought it was a bad ICH infestation because I didn't know any better. Anyway It's been said that if Dinospores don't find a host within 6 days that they'll die. However, they could possibly remain infective as long as 15 days. We just lack enough research. So in conclusion....I'd much rather run medication such as Copper or CP while doing TTM to significantly increase my chances of preventing a funky disease from entering my display. The reason why I've kinda transitioned over to CP is because so far....I've had great success with it. Not to mention it covers more than copper does. I think dosing at 40mg will be OK for most fish and prevent any further Dinospores and Theronts from landing on the fish. So again...this will reduce treatment times, increase your chances for success, save money and headaches.

 

[FarmerTy]

Oh man, I had a nice response written out and then hit the back button instead of the post button. User error!

I'm too lazy to rewrite so quick summary:

-velvet=bad, and more common now than most realize
-3 transfers=9 days, agreed, point was you're doing the work to setup the tank 3x already, why not leave it two extra days since you've already did the work of setting up the 3rd tank?
-freshwater ich is not even related to marine ich
-big fan of CP myself, my discussion points is not to discourage use of it
-pretty big caveat there... 7 day QT treatment if the fish is guaranteed not to have velvet, intestinal worms, or bacterial infections. How would one even know that?

 

[Reefahholic]

Just hold on to ur pants...I'm fixing to buy a nice scope. We gonna dive deep into parasitology! Gonna try to get one that will record video so I can make some YouTube videos. That way we can all learn together.

 

[FarmerTy]

Just hold on to ur pants...I'm fixing to buy a nice scope. We gonna dive deep into parasitology! Gonna try to get one that will record video so I can make some YouTube videos. That way we can all learn together.

I always wanted a nice set that can display on the TV. I get pretty bad motion sickness so looking through the scope itself can give me fits. Looking forward to the microscope action.

 

[Clownfish Chris]

I like new information when it is verifiable. Putting a specimen under a scope certainly a great way to get good information. There are quite a few numbers thrown around. Can you cite sources or is it just personal observation? For what it is worth I have never lost a fish to TTM and never had a fish come down with Ich or velvet after I have done TTM. With my personal 100% success rate it is impossible to have a better outcome so I am questioning your comment that combining TTM with CP is 50% better than TTM alone.

Quantitative statements should always be cited.

 

[Reefahholic]

Think about it. Parasites are tricky. People often don't follow the rules when it comes to TTM. Example: I've witnessed a lot of reefers who don't sterilize properly, don't transfer at the right time, or don't follow post treatment protocol. It's things like this that prevent success. Like Chris, I've had 100% success with tank transfer. So for me, it's the same either way. The numbers I gave were just common sense numbers. If you "Prevent" any other Theronts from landing on the fish from day 1- then I'd say you will highly increase your chances of success "IF" something were to go wrong. You are making TTM which is already proven that much safer by running meds while doing it. I won't argue with anybody about not running meds. To each his own. I just know that from this point forward, I'm running CP with my TTM coupled with Prazipro. It has been noted that Prazipro combined with CP can cause a bacterial bloom, but the two drugs are compatible together. Until I experience a bad bloom, I'll continue this regimen. I hope this helps somebody because there's been several times that I've started TTM with infested fish who were circling the drain. Had I ran CP or Copper during the transfers I believe I would have saved a lot of the fish that died.