my xenia are sick (1 Viewer)

[BadFish]

need some help...I have some xenia in my tank and it has been doing great...growing like a weed. However the past few days the heads have lost their deep pink color, almost to white. They do not stay open very long at all. I also have a very healthy population of anthelia that is also not opening fully...all tank parameters are fine...almost zero ammonia, nitrate, nitrite...pH of 8.3....help. thanks, badfish

 

[Hurdicuss]

I had the same thing happen to me, except to the point that my xenia eventually "melted" away! It could be due to low iodine levels. Hopefully others will chime in with their help...

J

 

[MarkieB]

Betcha you have added some buffer, calcium, or something that raises ph or calcium lately...

 

[BadFish]

I have always dosed purple up, but actually last time I did a water change (last week) I added a very small amount of buffer, really just to get rid of what was left in the jar (kents super buffer). So what can i do?

 

[MarkieB]

Xenia have a VERY low tolerance for high ph or calcium.
I hear people talk about Iodine ands xenia. I see no connection other than they also have a VERY low tolerance for high iodine levels.

What you can do is change about 50 percent of your water without adding in anything and they will most likely get back to normal soon. When ph or calcium shock sets in you have about 2 to 4 days to resolve this with water changes, else they will all melt away. All of this is presuming that the xenia are the only coral retracting or acting sad.


Get to doing water changes if you want to save them. It will take about 5 days or so to see them turn around if you do this.

 

[Guest]

>>Xenia have a VERY low tolerance for high ph or calcium. <<

Where did you hear this and what evidence do you have for this? Why would they have a low tolerance for calcium since they form tiny disc shaped spicules? Furthermore, a pH of 8.3 is not high.

>>I hear people talk about Iodine ands xenia. I see no connection other than they also have a VERY low tolerance for high iodine levels.<<

There is no evidence that iodine (iodine is not capitalized, but Xenia is) is involved in the metabolism of the Family Xeniidae. High iodine, being an oxidant and a poison, would obviously be detrimental to any two cell layered cnidarians, but iodine is rare in seawater as it is rapidly converted to other forms. So, are you suggesting that iodide or iodate or other forms are an acute toxin to the genus Xenia? I would like to see the proof for that if it exists.

>>What you can do is change about 50 percent of your water without adding in anything and they will most likely get back to normal soon. <<

Why? Has the problem with this tank been ascertained? I don't think enough information has been given to determine why these colonies are reportedly not doing well. I agree that water changes are often a good idea when things go wrong, but what is being corrected with the water change?

>>When ph or calcium shock sets in you have about 2 to 4 days to resolve this with water changes, else they will all melt away.<<

pH and calcium shock??!!! What is this? And a time frame, to boot. What is calcium shock? Why would pH of 8.3 be a shock?

>>All of this is presuming that the xenia are the only coral retracting or acting sad. <<

Maybe xeniids are the bioindicators for this tank? Without more information, it is hard to say.

>>Get to doing water changes if you want to save them. It will take about 5 days or so to see them turn around if you do this.<<

How can you be sure, and how can you predict a time frame for recovery? This is almost incomprehensible.

I would want to know how long the colonies have been in the tank, if they were collected from the wild, what the salinity, temperature, phosphate and light levels are. I would also want to know what, if any additions are made, including foods and any changes in maintenance or additions or equipment. Furthermore, the description of the "heads" turning white are signs of bleaching, or perhaps something pathological and water changes would not necesssarily do a thing if this were the real issue...and depending on the salt may even exacerbate the condition.

Xeniids are nearly fully autotrophic with regard to carbon and thus depend heavily on light. The colonies themselves are also short lived, and the "melting" common is xeniids is a result of autolysis (Fabricius and Alderslade 2001), probably through programmed cell death which can be triggered by a whole host of external and internal stimuli and cellular triggers (including bacteria, viruses, and all manner of stressors) in all cell types and organisms studied to date with distinct receptors and intracellular cascades.

Ironically, many of the most successful growers of Xenia I have met claim the most rapid growth and pulsatility of colonies when both pH and alkalinity are high. Furthermore, because they lack nematocysts or well developed mesenteries, they do not capture prey well and thus depend on either dissolved nutrients, bacteria (as prey or in symbiosis), or extremely small particulates possibly ingested by pinocytosis in a deficit of nitrogen, carbon or phosphorus. In this case, a water change would actually reduce the possible energy sources in the tank for any recovery processes. On the other hand, if there is a waterborne issue, such as a toxin or other xenobiotic factor, a water change would help. The problem is I don't think there is enough information to determine that.

Badfish, can you answer the questions above or provide photos?

 

[Guest]

Betcha you have added some buffer, calcium, or something that raises ph or calcium lately...

why does that affect them? I have always had troulbe killing xenia whenever I dose. I'm using Reef Solutions right now which suggests a daily dose and its really hurting the xenia while helping everything else.

 

[BadFish]

first i just wanted to point out that mark is a big fan of xenia and has a lot of experience with them...in fact, im pretty sure most people that have xenia on marsh got their frags from him...i got mine from someone who got it from him...im not trying to get a conflict started but i do respect is opinion when it comes to xenia...when he said I must of put a buffer or lots of calcium in he was right...the problem did not start until I added buffer for the first time in a year last week.

However, as you stated I really do not see how it could of been the buffer because it did put my pH at my ideal 8.3, also they have been growing like a weed since I started to add purple up every day. My Xenia population started from a one stalk frag I got in Feb. I now have three seperate, large, multi-stalk colonies. So needless to say, they were doing great. Now the polyps are white, not fully expanded but the stalk is still purple. At the same time I recieved a 3 polyp frag of anthelia that has spread to several rocks in my tank and I was thinking of weeding it out a little since it has grown so much. It is also having problems, I have three polyps that died and the others are shrunk up as much possible. So, i am pretty sure the problems are connected. Other corals I have include encrusting gorgonian, toadstool leather, finger leather, hypnopora (spelt right?), encrusting horn, montipora digita, greenstar polyp, ,orange montipora, cabbage leather, and various mushrooms and ricordea. Other inhabitants include a purple tang, spotted hawkfish, yellow-tail damsel, about a dozen nassirius snails, 25 nerite snails, 25 scarlet hermits, an urchin (need to give to someone), two cucumbers, and some other hermits and snails. Water quality is good, ammonia is close to zero as well as nitrite and nitrate, calcium is sitting happy at 375. This is a 58 oceanic, with T-5's over it, i have the crappy seaclone that i modified as much as possible (looking for a good deal on something better), a emperor hangon (has the thickist pod population ever), and a canister filter. I keep telling myself I'll build a wet-dry, sump and algae scrubberp this weekend but you know how that goes...this tank has been established since Jan, but is a combination of about 3 different systems that I broke down when I moved. absolutely no cyano just wish I had more corraline (hince the purple up). I love the anthelia and xenia in my tank and since it is well established I really would like for it to recover. Also, I just did my weekly 10% water change. If you still need pics to suggest something I can try to put them on later. Any suggestions from anyone are greatly appreciated...

 

[BadFish]

also the scarlets and the nerites are new additions a week ago...I also added a tangaroa goby and for ocellarius last week but they did not make it, do to the crappy shipping, damn fedex, next time I'll pick up the fish at the airport( sorry had to vent, that was 30 bucks worth of fish in the trash). also, forgot to thank both of you for the input and would greatly appreciate more if it is available...to do a major water change or not to do a major water change?

 

[MarkieB]

first i just wanted to point out that mark is a big fan of xenia and has a lot of experience with them...in fact, im pretty sure most people that have xenia on marsh got their frags from him...i got mine from someone who got it from him......when he said I must of put a buffer or lots of calcium in he was right...the problem did not start until I added buffer for the first time in a year last week.
.

BadFish thanks!
I have LOTS of xenia experience. Many types, not just what I sell. I have keep it for three years now and I have caused xenia crashes with buffers and calciums several times. I just know from experience how xenia react to my tank additions, and I now how to correct it when it happens. I have brought mine back from melts many times with water changes, when I caused a meltdown. . Do as you feel is warranted!

Aquapod I can't tell you why it happens. I only know it does, and I can reverse the melting with a water change.

 

[toefu]

i'm pretty sure mark got his xenia from other reefers and it's all pretty much the same xenia that has floated around march for over 7-8 years. This xenia hates it when you do too many water changes, and when you dose too much calcium and the such.

again, no proof here, just that I used to farm the stuff as well for a few years. best to just leave the tank alone, and water change it only when the xenia starts to look funny. I'm not really sure what nutrient the xenia depletes over time, but it seems that a few water changes always regenerates enough for atleast a month or two.

Now that I've gone low nutrient high calc, the 1 leftover stalk that I have takes forever to split and growth is extremely slow. This is the same issue that quoc and other sps tanks had as well. xenia just doesn't split and grow very fast in these kind of tanks (same lineage of xenia of course).

 

[BadFish]

I would just leave it to run its course but the fact that my anthelia is not looking so hot makes me think something might be wrong...I just did another 10% water change so that makes 20% for the night...has anyone had similar problems with both anthelia and xenia?

 

[BayAreaAquarium]

wow maybe it's just me but did scerlite just go off on you markieb. i'm sorry but if you were wrong, and i don't know. the one by one bashing that you got was just uncalled for. obviously that person didn't agree but could have just pointed out a few things and added his or her opinion or experience. but wow that was kind of vicious.

 

[MarkieB]

i'm pretty sure mark got his xenia from other reefers and it's all pretty much the same xenia that has floated around march for over 7-8 years. .

FYI....You are correct on my RED Sea variety. I also have 2 other uncommon forms from mail order, that react the very same way.

 

[Guest]

I am contacting Michael Janes in regards to this topic. I will post his commentary after we talk.

>>first i just wanted to point out that mark is a big fan of xenia and has a lot of experience with them...in fact, im pretty sure most people that have xenia on marsh got their frags from him...i got mine from someone who got it from him...im not trying to get a conflict started but i do respect is opinion when it comes to xenia...when he said I must of put a buffer or lots of calcium in he was right...the problem did not start until I added buffer for the first time in a year last week. <<

So, given that in any calcifying system that carbonate must be removed in calcification, and despite others having kept Xenia for upwards of 20 years while adding buffers, high pH kalkwasser solutions, calcium additives, and those who have been farming them in large amounts for over 20 years, this particular Xenia is for some reason sensitive to the naturally occurring carbonates found in seawater, or is is to a particular buffer product? How can it be explained that so many other hobbyists and professional aquarists do not have this same result when adding calcium, buffers or having high pH?

>>However, as you stated I really do not see how it could of been the buffer because it did put my pH at my ideal 8.3, also they have been growing like a weed since I started to add purple up every day.<<

Right...no comment on the purple up. I have no idea what is in it, nor why or what effect it would have on Xenia.

>> My Xenia population started from a one stalk frag I got in Feb. I now have three seperate, large, multi-stalk colonies. So needless to say, they were doing great. <<

That's more or less a normal growth rate for the genus some split faster, some slower. Its almost impossible to tell species, and the genus is in need of revision.

>>Now the polyps are white, not fully expanded but the stalk is still purple. <<

Purple is a vey unusual color for Xenia - not for other xeniids, but for Xenia it is very unusual to the point where I would even question the genus ID of the colony. I would like to see photos, because cream, tan, white and occasionally iridescence occur, but really truly purple?

>>At the same time I recieved a 3 polyp frag of anthelia that has spread to several rocks in my tank and I was thinking of weeding it out a little since it has grown so much. It is also having problems, I have three polyps that died and the others are shrunk up as much possible.<<

No Xenia predators?

>> So, i am pretty sure the problems are connected.<<

Well, if there is a general water issue, it will often show up first in some corals, and that's why I mentioned them as being bioindicators for your tank.

>> Other corals I have include encrusting gorgonian, toadstool leather, finger leather, hypnopora (spelt right?), encrusting horn, montipora digita, greenstar polyp, ,orange montipora, cabbage leather, and various mushrooms and ricordea.<<

Lots of these corals produce toxins that can affect other sensitive species.

>> Other inhabitants include a purple tang, spotted hawkfish, yellow-tail damsel, about a dozen nassirius snails, 25 nerite snails, 25 scarlet hermits, an urchin (need to give to someone), two cucumbers, and some other hermits and snails. Water quality is good, ammonia is close to zero as well as nitrite and nitrate, calcium is sitting happy at 375.<<

What about temp, salinity and phosphate? Do you use carbon?

>> This is a 58 oceanic, with T-5's over it, i have the crappy seaclone that i modified as much as possible (looking for a good deal on something better), a emperor hangon (has the thickist pod population ever), and a canister filter.<<

And you have zero nitrates? You sure the test kit is right?

>> I keep telling myself I'll build a wet-dry, sump and algae scrubberp this weekend but you know how that goes...this tank has been established since Jan, but is a combination of about 3 different systems that I broke down when I moved.<<

I think you have more than adequate mechanical filtration and personally do not thing that hang-on filters or canister filers have much of a place in reefkeeping...that's kind of a 1980's method. But, if it works, that's fine.

>> absolutely no cyano just wish I had more corraline (hince the purple up).<<

The corallines will respond well to high flow and various species to various light levels. They do poorly in tanks with high phosphate. Magnesium is important since they produce magnesium calcite instead of aragonite like the corals. They also respond well to high grazing pressure and high flow rates (the common Porolithon sp. being the classic case). I'm not sure what is in Purple Up, and I am not sure if it has any effect at all on coralline growth. I do know it is not needed to get heavy coralline growth and I don't add anything to my tank that doesn't list what is in it.

>> I love the anthelia and xenia in my tank and since it is well established I really would like for it to recover. Also, I just did my weekly 10% water change. If you still need pics to suggest something I can try to put them on later. Any suggestions from anyone are greatly appreciated...<<

I really would like to see some photos.

To be continued....

 

[BadFish]

yeah, its not a problem to post some pics...i'll put some up later tonight. And yes I am sure the ammonia reading is right (accurately speaking it is .01). I know this because the Hach spectrometer I used was just calibrated last week. Now, I use purple up because I tried it and i have liked the results so far...the xenia seemed to go through a growth spurt when I used it as well as some of the other corals. I took a water sample to work today and tested it, morning pH was at 7.75, when considering I did a water change with water that normally reads 7.8 the night before that does not suprise me so much. I have another water sample from tonight to take to work and see what the evening pH is. Like I said I am not trying to conflict so-and-so but it seems like a strange coincidence that Mark just happened to guess that I had added a buffer recently...I have not added buffer to the system in about a year at least. After the water change last night (20% all together), the Xenia started to pulse and expand more. In regards to insulting my style of aquarium, I will not take it personal but will tell you that the system works great for me, I have consistantly low ammonia levels, low phosphates (no charcoal, I do know that it will leach phosphates), and I am very happy with the flexibility it provides. Being a professional in the industry I know that free advice is worth the price you pay and that everyone has an opinion. Therefore I will listen to whatever people have to say about this since I have almost nil experience with xenia or anthelia. No offense ment here but something I have noticed is that when you always tell people they are wrong and act like you know it all you can come off as a jerk. I do not know your qualifications, what makes you an expert, I do not know you. This is a forum for people to share info about a hobby everyone loves. I appreciate your advice very much just wish you would not assume you know more than everybody here. Now, hopefully you didnt get offended because I need to get my xenia and anthelia healthy.

I read on another thread that xenia will often go through stages where it will die off for no apparent reason and that people have even reported of several small xenia colonies dispersed throughout a while after an apparent die off. I still do not know if I trust this either.

To answer your questions:

I really do not think it is a predator problem, unless scaret hermits or nerite snails somehow do ( I highly doubt it).

In regards to bioindicators, that is why I have the green star polyp, I have heard it is really good for this application and it has been open constantly and seems to actually be going through a growth spurt.

All of the corals are well spaced out except for the toadstool and xenia which have been touching for the last couple of months. However, I do have my suspecions about the encrusting gorgonian that has started to compete for space with the anthelia.

Temp varies from 79 before the lights come on in the morning and 80 sometimes 81 right before the lights go off.

Salinity is kept between 34 and 37 ppt

phosphate between .02 and .04 depending on time since last water change. The one problem I have with the coralline is the damn urchin, really need to get rid of that guy. Carbon is only used in emergencies, or I at least I bought it for that, haven't used it in months. And I love my emperor hangon filter because it has one hell of a bacteria load in it (It has been running for 8 years now) and it is a great shelter for pods.

As I explained earlier yes the test kit i right...because I use Hach chems, including pH probes, spectrometer, and digital titrator, which all have to be serviced or calibrated regularly.

Back to the filters, I mentioned I will build a wet-dry, sump, and algae scrubber shortly and will ditch the hang on and canister. Also technically it switches from mechanical to biological sometime after the second year of use when you never change anything out of it and it still reads almost zero on chem readings.

In regards to flow I would think I may have to much, its like a jacuzzi in there and sometimes I worry a fish will get stuck to glass. I agree with the Magnesium and I need to start dosing that more regularly...grazing pressure is covered, over 50 snails and over 50 hermits takes good care of that in a 58. Thanks for reading this long-********* post, again, appreciate all input.
Will post pics in a few minutes.

-Badfish

 

[Guest]

Purple Up consists of calcium, sand ("10 Micron Aragonite"), and iodine. Supposedly the sand "dissolves in situ delivering calcium, strontium, magnesium and carbonate right where it is needed." It sounds like another product that contains a generous dose of magic. You might want to test your idodine levels. I doubt the aragonite does much, you are already dosing calcium, and Purple Up does not indicate how much it raises iodine levels so I would lay off of it. Also how did you manage not to dose for alkalinity in more than a year? Lastly I would not trust the "xenia will often go through stages where it will die off for no apparent reason"; I am sure their Xenia died off for a reason. Too many times people will say something happened for no reason in their tanks but if you dig deep enough their is a reason that they didn't know, glossed over, or are embarassed to admit.

 

[BadFish]

These pics were taken about 10 minutes ago...so far tonight I have done another 10% water change and spot dosed very diluted iodine on the xenia and anthelia since it was strongly suggested on other forums in similar situations, hope it works and does it kill them. I can not find any pics from before this problem. if these pics are the wrong size can someone please help me fix it? thanks

 

[dreamersdisease]

is it possible that the anthelia and xenia had adapted to the low alkalinity and ph over the course of a year of not maintaining these levels and now that you have suddenly elevated them they are shocked and receeding?

 

[BadFish]

thats kinda what I was thinking but I got these around Jan. and they never showed signs of shock when I put them in the tank...and the parameters were the about the same then...I was thinking maybe they are sensitive to quick and dramatic changes in pH...I think I'll have a good idea on that tomorrow when I test the evening pH at work.