Old Tank Syndrome (1 Viewer)

[Reefy]

So I’ve been doing some reading on advanced aquarist and came across this article in the link below:

The “Old Tank” Syndrome

Now that a tank no longer needs to be broken down and tanks are being maintained for long periods of time a new

www.advancedaquarist.com

I noticed there was a few old threads on this forum as well and the article in the link above is from May 2006. Maybe there is more current information that others can share here.

Would any of the “old timers” like to chime in on their solution to this problem if they had such a problem. My tank is a little over a year and a half old and I would like to mitigate or even avoid this problem if possible. It would be nice to hear from people who have had their tanks for more than four years and if they’ve seen some of these problems occurring in their tank and their solutions they came up with as well.

Thanks all, and I hope this thread is informative for everyone.

 

[steveb]

What are you looking to mitigate?

My one piece of advice.. If you have substrate on the bottom keep it cleaned/vacuumed. I can't tell you how many tanks I have seen (mine included) that just have a ton of detritus built up in them. I never realized how much it really was until I started running bare bottom frag tanks. I literally clean a couple of cups of crud from the bottom every month or so.

 

[webster1234]

THIS ^^^^^^^^^^^ X 10!!!! And blow your rocks off with a turkey baster once a week. Then run filter socks to catch all of the crud you just stirred up.

 

[Cody]

I think old tank syndrome is an overscoping trend of changing parameters that folks don't into account. What they are, I don't know. However, I do know that a guy named Paul B on reefcentral about a decade ago was talking about the changes his 35 year old reef tank had gone through. Assuming it's still going, the man has a 45 year old reef tank. He described periods of multiple years where a coral would grow like a weed and then stop for a couple years.

As far as what changes the parameters, I chalk them up to parameters in the tank itself, and not the water chemistry. The article that you linked described an old reef tank as 5+ years. After 5+ years, your corals should be growing into each other and playing proxy wars. I never attributes it to much more than that.

 

[Reefy]

Basically in a nutshell the article from advanced aquarists talks about the lack of husbandry as ONE of the culprits for old tank syndrome. I realize good husbandry will avoid many of the problems such as high phosphates and nitrates, detritus buildup etc. Blowing the rocks off is something that I do since I’ve started this hobby once a week before I change my mechanical filter. That way the “old” dirty filter catches most of the crap that comes off the rock, and since it’s my next step to replace the filter I won’t have the buildup in the new filter. I was just wondering if a balanced bio diverse system with a diverse cleanup crew may help mitigate detritus and nutrients buildup and hence lower the nitrates and phosphates and other problems that could occur over time. There are a lot of nooks and crannies in live rock and in the substrate as well, so I’m sure it’s important to keep them clean as much as possible. Weather from a good cleanup crew and/or water changes.

Seems to me that in a close system especially one that has areas of dead zones in it with very little flow (which I’m sure most tanks have) could cause problems in the long run. I’ve even heard where people take the rocks out and clean them every four or five years. I’m assuming that they don’t make them dead rock and then have to cycle again, but just maybe brush off the detritus.

So long story short, I’m trying to find the abridged version of doing away with these problems if there is such a thing. Or at least find things that I can do in practice now so that it doesn’t become a bigger problem later. I guess that’s the lazy side of me speaking. It would be nice if there was some magical chemical or pill that you could put in the tank to remove all the garbage and leave the good stuff like corals, fish, and inverts.

 

[Reefahholic]

I think old tank syndrome basically boils down to poor husbandry.

Like Steve said...sand-beds that aren’t designed to be ALIVE are nothing more than detritus traps over a long period of time.

Detritus needs to be removed. Pumps need to be cleaned and inspected at least once a year. Better to do it every 6 months or even 3 months. I shoot for 6 months. This includes skimmers.

It’s really just everything. Bacteria can be skimmed out over time. Overflow boxes and pipes can become clogged. I recommend everybody dosing a little waste away from time to time or a similar product. My new tank has been up about 9 months and I bet you would be surprised how clean the bottom of my overflow box is and I’ve never cleaned it. I give credit to waste away for that.

So let’s switch gears....

What are the symptoms that lead up to a tank crash from old tank syndrome?? 9-10 times the guy cannot tell you what his parameters have been for the last several months because he wasn’t testing at all. Then they come to the forums crying about how they had a tank crash.

 

[Reefy]

I think old tank syndrome basically boils down to poor husbandry.

Like Steve said...sand-beds that aren’t designed to be ALIVE are nothing more than detritus traps over a long period of time.

Detritus needs to be removed. Pumps need to be cleaned and inspected at least once a year. Better to do it every 6 months or even 3 months. I shoot for 6 months. This includes skimmers.

It’s really just everything. Bacteria can be skimmed out over time. Overflow boxes and pipes can become clogged. I recommend everybody dosing a little waste away from time to time or a similar product. My new tank has been up about 9 months and I bet you would be surprised how clean the bottom of my overflow box is and I’ve never cleaned it. I give credit to waste away for that.

So let’s switch gears....

What are the symptoms that lead up to a tank crash from old tank syndrome?? 9-10 times the guy cannot tell you what his parameters have been for the last several months because he wasn’t testing at all. Then they come to the forums crying about how they had a tank crash.

I didn’t know about this stuff. This is the kind of information I was looking for. Is the pic I attached the product you are referring to? Seems kind of expensive on Amazon. So I’m assuming in your opinion it works pretty good? Form what the product description says it sounds like it’s bacteria that eats the sludge in the aquarium. Correct? Oh and by the way I clean my pumps and wave maker every month.

Thanks all for the input so far.

 

[webster1234]

There are different kinds of bacteria out there. I've never heard of that one but I use one called Vibrant by Underwater Creations. It works great on an old tank with frustrating PO4 etc but it will take a younger tank to zero PO4 really fast which is something you don't want. So I advise on any of these to use with caution.
I had a persistent gha problem for a while and with Vibrant, it was gone it two weeks. But I know someone with a younger tank that used the same stuff and it stripped the water of nutrients in very short order.

 

[frankc]

I think there was something else that stripped the nutrients. I saw a video on BRS with the creator of Vibrant, and he says it is not a bacteria that tries to out-compete the algae, but rather a type of bacteria that actually eats the algae. In fact, he said this is why some people have experienced a cyano outbreak after using Vibrant - as the bacteria eats the algae, it releases some of the nutrients back into the tank, and this combined with the freed-up real estate from the now-gone algae allows the cyano to take over.

 

[steveb]

I don't know about all algae but Vibrant is the bee's knees for valonia in my experience.

 

[webster1234]

I think there was something else that stripped the nutrients. I saw a video on BRS with the creator of Vibrant, and he says it is not a bacteria that tries to out-compete the algae, but rather a type of bacteria that actually eats the algae. In fact, he said this is why some people have experienced a cyano outbreak after using Vibrant - as the bacteria eats the algae, it releases some of the nutrients back into the tank, and this combined with the freed-up real estate from the now-gone algae allows the cyano to take over.

Wow, that is good to know. I experienced a cyano outbreak recently and couldn't for the life of me figure out why I got it. That may be exactly what happened. Glad you posted that.

 

[Matyas]

I think its more about LARS than Old tank syndrome. Joe Yaiullo(not sure how to spell it) had a cool talk about it a few years ago at reef currents

 

[Reefy]

Here is another link on advanced aquarist the same year in 2006 but in October by Julian Sprung. The first link I posted from advanced aquarist was by Mike Paletta.

Old Tank Syndrome

Does old tank syndrome really exist? Julian explains changes that the tank goes through as it gets older.

www.advancedaquarist.com

Has anyone tried or is using the triton method? I’m just wondering without water changes how that system would fare as it gets older.

 

[Reefy]

Here is an excerpt from the article by Julian Sprung about water changes:

Water change
Old tank syndrome symptoms can be an effect of insufficient water changes. While it is true that we can manage the accumulation of nitrate and phosphate, remove water staining organic substances, and also maintain calcium and alkalinity without performing a water change, the ionic composition of the water still drifts with time in an aquarium containing so much life. Bingman (1998; 1999) discusses this effect, with respect to some major ions, and Fosså and Nilsen (1996) show the changes that occur with some select ions in aquariums maintained with various water change regimes, including no water change. Water changes of approximately 10 to 25% monthly help to limit the long-term change in the ionic composition of seawater in a closed system aquarium.

I think the key words are iconic composition. Any old-timers want to take a stab at what Julian is talking about?

 

[reeftopia]

My use of vibrant was a disaster. I do have a very deep sand bed and going on 7 years. I check all parameters biweekly and record
them to see if I have any creep going on. Sometimes I think people who have had tanks a long time become lazy in their monitoring.
while not denying the possibility don't think anything happens overnight that you cant fix.

 

[steveb]

Here is an excerpt from the article by Julian Sprung about water changes:

Water change
Old tank syndrome symptoms can be an effect of insufficient water changes. While it is true that we can manage the accumulation of nitrate and phosphate, remove water staining organic substances, and also maintain calcium and alkalinity without performing a water change, the ionic composition of the water still drifts with time in an aquarium containing so much life. Bingman (1998; 1999) discusses this effect, with respect to some major ions, and Fosså and Nilsen (1996) show the changes that occur with some select ions in aquariums maintained with various water change regimes, including no water change. Water changes of approximately 10 to 25% monthly help to limit the long-term change in the ionic composition of seawater in a closed system aquarium.

I think the key words are iconic composition. Any old-timers want to take a stab at what Julian is talking about?

He's saying some stuff (trace elements) gets used up, some stuff accumulates, in addition the chloride/sulfate ratio can get out of wack compared to natural seawater.

Triton method uses ICP testing to tell you what trace elements need to be replenished. Not sure about elevated levels.

Regular water changes help to alleviate all of the above. Given triton is trying to eliminate water changes.

 

[Reefahholic]

I didn’t know about this stuff. This is the kind of information I was looking for. Is the pic I attached the product you are referring to? Seems kind of expensive on Amazon. So I’m assuming in your opinion it works pretty good? Form what the product description says it sounds like it’s bacteria that eats the sludge in the aquarium. Correct? Oh and by the way I clean my pumps and wave maker every month.

Thanks all for the input so far.

Yeah, that’s it but don’t buy it from amazon and buy one smaller. It is bacteria that eats sludge. If you have SPS go slow. Work up to the maintenance dose over several weeks.

 

[Reefahholic]

Here is another link on advanced aquarist the same year in 2006 but in October by Julian Sprung. The first link I posted from advanced aquarist was by Mike Paletta.

Old Tank Syndrome

Does old tank syndrome really exist? Julian explains changes that the tank goes through as it gets older.

www.advancedaquarist.com

Has anyone tried or is using the triton method? I’m just wondering without water changes how that system would fare as it gets older.

The full Triton system relies heavily on a large refugium. I ran the “others” method twice as I don’t have a large fuge and the full Triton method was creating algae blooms due to the “pro algae elements.”

The goal would be no water changes, but IMO this is hard to accomplish for most reefers. I think the method is good (Speaking of Core7), but it’s much too strong for my current 75/G system and w/o water changes I don’t like it. I had no interest in trying to dilute it honestly and really not sure if you can. There’s no customer service, and the directions are very limited. Most people that run the system get ICP results back that say “do a water change/s.” I finally gave it up and switched over to Red Sea’s Trace Color program which I feel is a safer and much better way to go. I can contact Red Sea and they actually respond. I’m not dosing the full amount until I see a few ICP’s, but I’m getting great results from 1/2 the recommended dose.

As far as ionic imbalance...I dose ESV 2-part and this is one of the few 2-parts that prevents ionic imbalance.

 

[Reefahholic]

I don't know about all algae but Vibrant is the bee's knees for valonia in my experience.

You saying it’s great or horrible?
I hear it works well, but you have to go slow. Just like these bacterial products.

 

[Reefahholic]

Ohh and you asked if waste away works?

It absolutely works very well. My system calls for about 7mL.

I dosed 2mL the 1st week.
4mL the 2nd week.
7ml the 3rd week.

Left skimmer running with top off to overflow. Used to run an air-stone with it, but now I don’t. I don’t even turn off the skimmer or keep the top off anymore. Some will be skimmed out, but I have enough bacteria in the system that it doesn’t matter.

The water gets clear after you dose like dosing LaCI3.