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Running a DSB pros and cons (1 Viewer)

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OP
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I definitely want to go this route, but can I run a skimmer with it and will hermits be detrimental to a dsb. Im guessing that 3 inches would be sufficient or does it need to be more.
 

RickD

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Prior to getting back into the hobby, i had a DSB and opted to go without one this time. This is mainly do because in the 5 years I was away, reef keeping has evolved and there are more innovative ways to the solution and I was more focused on a building a balanced ecosystem. If I was ever to experiment, I would consider a remote DSB only because it's less invasive. Keep in mind, there is no silver bullet solution unless you just like to have a DSB. There is so much research on the DSB, just be sure you understand that results aren't overnight.
 
OP
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I also saw a guy's 280 reef aquarium that had a closed loop and had a 4 to 5 in sand bed and his tank looked amazing.
 

SCUBAFreaky

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I struggle with the use of a DSB with all of the more recent advancements in philosophies and technologies for nutrient export. My struggle with them is that can easily tend to be ticking time bombs over the long term. They definitely work but there's a risk factor as well. Aside from housing creatures that live in the sand, the main biological purpose of a deep sand band is to lower/remove nitrates. It does this by housing anaerobic bacteria in the deeper portion of the bed which convert nitrates back into nitrogen. The common wisdom for bed depth of a DSB is at least 4 to 5 inches of sand so keep that in mind if you indeed go this route. The downside of a DSB, and the ticking time bomb aspect, is that if organic material is allowed to sink into the deeper part of the bed the anaerobic bacteria can then produce hydrogen sulfide, which left unchecked can become pockets of time bombs thus poisoning your tank. DSBs actually need to be vacuumed on a regular basis to prevent a build up of this organic material. All of the creatures living in the sand bed will prevent this build up to some degree but after a couple of years and if the sand bed was not regularly vacuumed (life happens), issues can and will likely occur.

Looks like the allure of a DSB for you is the reduction of regular water changes, the creatures/life that live in one, and less equipment. Did I miss any other reasons why you favor the DSB?

Okay, I think 99.9% of the folks on MARSH would affirm that regular water changes are a critical key to a long term successful tank. Some folks on here, including me, have tried not performing regular water changes and time and time again I have seen and experienced the benefits of doing regular water changes...and the pain and struggle of not doing them. There's really no way around it for the long term. You can certainly try it, but most would not recommend it. The key for me for doing water changes is making that process as painless, easy, and less time consuming as possible. There's even a way to do continuous automatic water changes but that requires some additional equipment. But if you incorporate a water changing station and/or easy access to a water supply and a drain that can make the process a lot less painless. Brute trash cans and the right pump can also make it pretty easy. If you go with weekly 10% water changes, that's only 4 gallons. That can be easily accommodated with two 5 gallon buckets. One for saltwater mixing and one for removal of water from your display tank. If you go with 20-25% water changes every 2 weeks that's up to 10 gallons and you could use a small Brute trash can for salt water and 2 dumps of a 5 gallon bucket in the toilet for water removal. There are many clever ways to do easy water changes these days. Just plan ahead for it and figure out how to make it as easy as possible for you.

If you ended up with going with just a 1 or 2" sand bed instead of a DSB, there are still a lot creatures that can live in/on this type of sand bed that are fun and interesting to have. You can still have snails, several different kinds of crabs, worms, starfish, gobies, wrasses, etc. Not having a DSB shouldn't by any means prevent you from still having kewl stuff that live in the sand.

Equipment. As several other folks have suggested in one of your other threads try to keep your tank as simple as possible for the first couple of years. For example, you were considering the Sapphire 39 for your sump. This sump is likely larger than you need and you could easily just use the Sapphire 26. This sump can accommodate sock filters or filter pads and it also has separate chambers each for a protein skimmer, refugium, and your return pump. Starting off at a very minimum you will want to use a skimmer. Over time you could eventually add chaeto to your refugium and that would address nutrient reduction (phosphate and nitrate removal) as your tank ages and matures. You could also eventually add a sock filter or filter pad if desired (I use sock filters in my system but others don't like them). And BTW, utilizing sock filters does not prohibit having pods in your tank. If you add pods to your refugium, you will end up with plenty of them in your display tank regardless if you have a sock filter or not. The chambers of the Sapphire 26 are also large enough that you could even add additional pumps for things like carbon and GFO reactors, a UV filter, or even an algae turf scrubber depending on your choice for additional nutrient export. But beyond a skimmer these are all things that can be added at a later time as you figure out how your tank and your system are performing during the first couple of years. So the thought here is start off simple and then add things later as needed. Sumps like the Sapphire 26 or other multi-chamber sumps are designed to accommodate adding useful things/equipment later on.

I know you are on information overload right now but try to keep simple in mind as others have also encouraged as you go through your design process. I know you've received a lot of advice here lately but definitely try to keep it simple for at least a year and also create a way to easily do 10 or 20% water changes on a regular basis. If you just do that, you have an excellent chance of being successful at having a beautiful reef tank. And definitely keep bouncing ideas off of us! We're here to help and encourage.
 
OP
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Would a 3 inch bed be ok as I want to have some nassarius snails, margarita snails and cerith snails. As well as some blue leg hermits and 2 or 3 skunk cleaners.
 

RickD

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Would a 3 inch bed be ok as I want to have some nassarius snails, margarita snails and cerith snails. As well as some blue leg hermits and 2 or 3 skunk cleaners.

The goal is have no gas exchange, 4” will give you a lot of layers. Again, if I had to do a DSB, then, i would do a remote DSB so in case i needed to clean it, the i could detach and clean it and you don’t have to worry about the critters inside mixing it up.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
OP
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Yeah I think from what I've read that a dsb is not the things to do these days. There is too much risk involved and its not worth the live stock you have invested in your tank. I'll just stick with a 3 in sand bed of fiji pink.
 
OP
OP
H-D-Fatboy-16
Joined
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I struggle with the use of a DSB with all of the more recent advancements in philosophies and technologies for nutrient export. My struggle with them is that can easily tend to be ticking time bombs over the long term. They definitely work but there's a risk factor as well. Aside from housing creatures that live in the sand, the main biological purpose of a deep sand band is to lower/remove nitrates. It does this by housing anaerobic bacteria in the deeper portion of the bed which convert nitrates back into nitrogen. The common wisdom for bed depth of a DSB is at least 4 to 5 inches of sand so keep that in mind if you indeed go this route. The downside of a DSB, and the ticking time bomb aspect, is that if organic material is allowed to sink into the deeper part of the bed the anaerobic bacteria can then produce hydrogen sulfide, which left unchecked can become pockets of time bombs thus poisoning your tank. DSBs actually need to be vacuumed on a regular basis to prevent a build up of this organic material. All of the creatures living in the sand bed will prevent this build up to some degree but after a couple of years and if the sand bed was not regularly vacuumed (life happens), issues can and will likely occur.

Looks like the allure of a DSB for you is the reduction of regular water changes, the creatures/life that live in one, and less equipment. Did I miss any other reasons why you favor the DSB?

Okay, I think 99.9% of the folks on MARSH would affirm that regular water changes are a critical key to a long term successful tank. Some folks on here, including me, have tried not performing regular water changes and time and time again I have seen and experienced the benefits of doing regular water changes...and the pain and struggle of not doing them. There's really no way around it for the long term. You can certainly try it, but most would not recommend it. The key for me for doing water changes is making that process as painless, easy, and less time consuming as possible. There's even a way to do continuous automatic water changes but that requires some additional equipment. But if you incorporate a water changing station and/or easy access to a water supply and a drain that can make the process a lot less painless. Brute trash cans and the right pump can also make it pretty easy. If you go with weekly 10% water changes, that's only 4 gallons. That can be easily accommodated with two 5 gallon buckets. One for saltwater mixing and one for removal of water from your display tank. If you go with 20-25% water changes every 2 weeks that's up to 10 gallons and you could use a small Brute trash can for salt water and 2 dumps of a 5 gallon bucket in the toilet for water removal. There are many clever ways to do easy water changes these days. Just plan ahead for it and figure out how to make it as easy as possible for you.

If you ended up with going with just a 1 or 2" sand bed instead of a DSB, there are still a lot creatures that can live in/on this type of sand bed that are fun and interesting to have. You can still have snails, several different kinds of crabs, worms, starfish, gobies, wrasses, etc. Not having a DSB shouldn't by any means prevent you from still having kewl stuff that live in the sand.

Equipment. As several other folks have suggested in one of your other threads try to keep your tank as simple as possible for the first couple of years. For example, you were considering the Sapphire 39 for your sump. This sump is likely larger than you need and you could easily just use the Sapphire 26. This sump can accommodate sock filters or filter pads and it also has separate chambers each for a protein skimmer, refugium, and your return pump. Starting off at a very minimum you will want to use a skimmer. Over time you could eventually add chaeto to your refugium and that would address nutrient reduction (phosphate and nitrate removal) as your tank ages and matures. You could also eventually add a sock filter or filter pad if desired (I use sock filters in my system but others don't like them). And BTW, utilizing sock filters does not prohibit having pods in your tank. If you add pods to your refugium, you will end up with plenty of them in your display tank regardless if you have a sock filter or not. The chambers of the Sapphire 26 are also large enough that you could even add additional pumps for things like carbon and GFO reactors, a UV filter, or even an algae turf scrubber depending on your choice for additional nutrient export. But beyond a skimmer these are all things that can be added at a later time as you figure out how your tank and your system are performing during the first couple of years. So the thought here is start off simple and then add things later as needed. Sumps like the Sapphire 26 or other multi-chamber sumps are designed to accommodate adding useful things/equipment later on.

I know you are on information overload right now but try to keep simple in mind as others have also encouraged as you go through your design process. I know you've received a lot of advice here lately but definitely try to keep it simple for at least a year and also create a way to easily do 10 or 20% water changes on a regular basis. If you just do that, you have an excellent chance of being successful at having a beautiful reef tank. And definitely keep bouncing ideas off of us! We're here to help and encourage.
I'm going to go with your recommendation with the sapphire 26, but can I still run a large refugium and keep the nutrients down.
 
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