G
Guest
hmmm just curious to see if anyone here knows where i can send a sample to a diagnostic lab or such to test my water..(not for parameters testubg)? cant seem to ID the mysterious disease that's wrecking havoc in my tank.
-
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OP
OP
Guest
BTW it's a 120 FOWLR
OP
OP
Guest
Do you have a microscope?
If you could get a sample of the critter and look at it under a scope you should be able to ID it.
If you could get a sample of the critter and look at it under a scope you should be able to ID it.
OP
OP
Guest
i can get a microscope but i dont have a reference or picture to compare it to..guess i have to look it up on the net
OP
OP
Guest
If you can get a picture post it here or on reef central, some one will be able to help.
If not try and describe it the best you can.
Michael
If not try and describe it the best you can.
Michael
OP
OP
Guest
Discoloration on most of my fish. My juv emperator had patched of gray area on his body. Same goes for my juv cortez. Along with torn fins.They both went to fishie heaven yesterday ;*(
OP
OP
Guest
Can you actually describe the parasite, if so that will help me out because I have a good book on parasites up at work, if not I'll use what you gave me.
Sorry to hear about yoour fish that sucks.
Michael
Sorry to hear about yoour fish that sucks.
Michael
OP
OP
Guest
WOW it'd be nice if i could get my hand on that book articcatfish. Where can i get a copy?Other than white spot on my fish i dont see any other parasites. I did use a magnifying glasses but that's probably useless detecting anything minute. My vlamingi seem to have some sort of a rash around it mouth and gill fins, a brownish rash of sort. I think it could be a bacterial infection im currently dosing metafix and pimafix
OP
OP
Guest
The book we have at kemah is called Fish Disease and it is by Edward J. Noga. I don't know of anywhere to get it other then off the web like half.com or amazon. There is another really good one but I can't remeber the title or author right now.
OP
OP
Guest
yaoming
can malafix use in the reef tank??
can malafix use in the reef tank??
AggieBrandon
Guest
melafix is basically snake oil....worthless.
Brandon
Brandon
OP
OP
Guest
theyre reefsafe but not compatible with carbon...dont know about snake oil but it smells like peroxide
OP
OP
Guest
If my memory serves me correctly, melafix uses an extract from the eucalyptus(sp??) tree.
OP
OP
Guest
Josh dont be shy...please feel free to dispense your expertise on fish disease
OP
OP
Guest
Haha. A picture would be helpful. What part of town are you in??
Try this website. http://www.fishyfarmacy.com/diseases.html
Try this website. http://www.fishyfarmacy.com/diseases.html
djreef
Guest
Yao,
Let's get a little more background on the system.
How long has your rig been set up?
What are your levels like? salinity, ammonia, nitrate, pH, nitrite, etc.
What are you using for flow? How much water are you moving through the system per hour?
Temperature? Are there any fluctuations (ex. AM to PM)?
Do you skim?
Do you have an overflow/sump setup?
What were/are you feeding the system? How often?
How often do you flush the toilet (change water)? How much (%) do you change when you do? What kind of water do you use for changes/makeup? What brand of salt?
Do you have a deep sand bed? If not what kind of faunal support system do you have besides the liverock?
What kind of lighting are you running? Watts per gallon?
How many fish? How big? What kinds, besides the ones you've already listed?
Sorry to hear of your losses, let's fix the problem.
DJ
= 8-->{I>
Let's get a little more background on the system.
How long has your rig been set up?
What are your levels like? salinity, ammonia, nitrate, pH, nitrite, etc.
What are you using for flow? How much water are you moving through the system per hour?
Temperature? Are there any fluctuations (ex. AM to PM)?
Do you skim?
Do you have an overflow/sump setup?
What were/are you feeding the system? How often?
How often do you flush the toilet (change water)? How much (%) do you change when you do? What kind of water do you use for changes/makeup? What brand of salt?
Do you have a deep sand bed? If not what kind of faunal support system do you have besides the liverock?
What kind of lighting are you running? Watts per gallon?
How many fish? How big? What kinds, besides the ones you've already listed?
Sorry to hear of your losses, let's fix the problem.
DJ
= 8-->{I>
OP
OP
Guest
about 4-5 months old
salinity @ .020-22
very little ammonia
20pmm nitrate
0 nitrate
700GPH return pump
PM skimmer rated for 100-150 gallons
Constant 80-81 degree
Sump with calerpa and miracle mud
my sand bed is about 2 inches deep
i feed 3-4 times a day with various fish cube from
ocean nutrition and flake sometime scallop
i religiously change 10-15%water almost everyweek
water is from Citypet RO
MY fish were doing fine for a while then all of a sudden all my fish got sick and start dropping one by one
thanks
salinity @ .020-22
very little ammonia
20pmm nitrate
0 nitrate
700GPH return pump
PM skimmer rated for 100-150 gallons
Constant 80-81 degree
Sump with calerpa and miracle mud
my sand bed is about 2 inches deep
i feed 3-4 times a day with various fish cube from
ocean nutrition and flake sometime scallop
i religiously change 10-15%water almost everyweek
water is from Citypet RO
MY fish were doing fine for a while then all of a sudden all my fish got sick and start dropping one by one
thanks
OP
OP
Guest
BTW im from SW side of town westheimer and beltway
djreef
Guest
OK
That gives us a little more to work with. Firstly, I suspect that the prob you're having, as far as the disease goes, is with Oodinium - or saltwater velvet. I can't be certain, of course not having seen it, but from the description that's what it sounds like. An easy way to see it is to look down the side of the fish as it swims toward you. If you see a yellow/grayish sheen, dusting across the scales/skin, that's more than likely what it is. It's one of those diseases that's very common, and more than likely, lies dormant in just about every system, much like ick does. The problem is that when it gets out of control, it is deadly, and a bitch to erradicate. The parasite infests the animal by burrowing into the skin and gills, much in the same way as ick. It becomes deadly when it clogs the gills, suffocating the animal, and by causing secondary bacterial infections at lesion sites. It also has a propensity to strike fully stocked systems that are btwn 4-6 months old. I don't know why that is, but I suspect that it may have something to do with the life cycle of the organism (I'm sure Dr Marini can weigh in with more detail here), and the recency of the setup. Anyway, and here is the bad part - the only way I've found to kill these little creeps is with copper. Nothing on the market, I have found, works, other than copper. If you've ever had to deal with copper dosing you already know it's a pain in the neck. The levels must be dosed stronger than what you would use to kill ick. The last outbreak I erradicated took me 6-8 weeks at a dose that was 50% higher than recommended. OK, so you need copper, AND a test kit - you must have a test kit so you can measure the ammount of copper in the system at any given time. Copper binds, is adsorbed, and absorbed by any, and all things in the system - from the glass to the sand to the rocks. This means that the systemic copper fluctuates, so it must be dosed daily, and maintained.
This creates a number of titanic problems for folks trying to maintain a natural system. The biggest is that copper does not discriminate - it kills everything without a backbone. Worms, pods, shrimp, snails, planaria, rotifers - in a nutshell all of your microfauna. I believe, that in this case since you've elected to go with a FOWLR, the cure may actually be worse than the disease. Treating the animals in a secondary system won't work because the disease remains active in the main system for months.
So, what's the solution?
Before we get there let's take a look at the main culprit behind fish getting ill in our systems - stress. Fish that are stressed are many times more likely to get sick than those that are comfortable with their surroundings. That's not to say that unstressed fish don't get sick, they do, but they are far less likely to in a system that's healthy, and compliant to their needs. Stress can be caused by many factors, just as it is with people. The most common form of stress is caused by overcrowding. Overcrowding causes problems on many levels. Sea animals need space - lots of space. They came from the ocean, after-all, they're used to having lots of 'legroom'. I've seen more examples of diseased animals in wholesale operations crammed together in cubicles. That's one of the reasons that suppliers rely so heavily on copper in their retention systems, to keep the pests under control. Anyway, bioloads that are lean in the begining, are far less likely to produce sick fish, as a general rule.
Also, systems that are 'new' can cause stress. Of course, as you prob already know, systems that haven't fully cycled are murder on the inhabitants that must suffer through the process. When waste levels externally become higher than waste levels internally (inside the organism) the livestock, literally drown in their own metabolic poisons. Fortunately, we have beneficial bacteria that take care of all of this, but it takes time for them to get established. In some cases it can take several months for a system to properly cure out. During this critical period there may be several chemical shifts and fluctuations, some of which are stressful to the animals we keep. In fact it's not uncommon for parameters to be not entirely stable 6-8 months into the life of an active living network. The fact that you're having trouble with your tang & angel is not surprising. These guys tend to be super sensitive to anything but pristine conditions, esp tangs. Tangs have earned the reputation of being 'ick magnets' due to there inability to adapt to stress and avoid infestation. Some more than others.
What I recommend - You're not going to like this.
I think that your situation warrants that you let the disease burn itself out. My foremost recommendation is that you just leave them where they are and discontinue medications; chances are that's only going to make things worse by stressing the system even more. If it is in fact velvet, you're going to lose most everything anyway, but there is an outside chance some fish may survive. Some are pretty resistant, though those animals are few and far between. I would let the system fallow for at least 2 months after the remission of symptoms. That means feed the inhabitants, and change water when you need to, just like you're doing now - even with the diminished bio-load. Even if the tank ends up barren of fish life. The idea is to allow the bio system to realign itself. To achieve a balance, if you will. You must develop the infauna capable of controlling the parasite. The only way to do this is to allow it to correct with time. It's going to be difficult, but you must be disciplined. If you attempt to add another fish too soon you're going to start the disease process all over again, and you'll be right back where you started. When you do add fish, add tough guys like blennies or damsels. One at a time. They'll be your canaries.
Your other option, is to move all the fish to another system, even if you have to give them away. Take them someplace where they can either be treated, or can recover. Of course, this is going to be difficult as you wouldn't want to introduce an aggitated pathogen into a healthy system (like a friends tank for example). Maybe you could setup a hospital tank using water from the main tank. This is going to be a difficult task as a 'new' tank puts you right back where you were before, with unstable water params and such. It really would be alot of work, and prob would not be successful, at this point.
OK - lets address some of the systemic problems.
1. Flow - moving 700 gallons per hour through a system that big is prob not enough. On my 115 angel setup I have a Mag 950 as my return, Mag 1200 blowing through a modified Aqua-C EV-150 skimmer, with a Magnum 330 canister filter (being used as a bug hatchery). I turn the water over 12-15 times an hour. The fish you want to keep are accustomed to high velocity water in the wild. The more O2 you can push into the water, the better.
2. Salinity - the salinity of seawater runs btw 1.024-1.026. All the critters in FOWLR setup are going to prefer this range, regardless what the dude at the fishstore tells you. This is what they live in, in the wild, so do what you can to duplicate it. Also, mix your own water. It's cheaper, and you don't have to lug buckets of inconsistently mismixed store water back and forth from the shop. This will also allow you to change out larger percentages at once. Though I concede it's excessive, I do 75% changes every 3 weeks.
3. If you're going to make a sandbed, dude, make a sandbed. Add at least 3 more inches of sand into you refugium. The only way to increase your biocapacity is to increase the surface area. Add more sand to the main tank, as well. You don't have to do this all at once, but you really should do it. You don't have to buy livesand. Buy this sugar sized stuff in the bag, (if you can get a couple of bags of Southdown from someone/somewhere that would be great) and get ziplock bags of sand from club-members at the next meeting to seed it with. You need to get your beneficial bug numbers up.
4 diet - all I can say is make the diet as diverse as you can. Go to the Asian food store and buy red or purple laver/nori and feed a few times a week. My Blueface loves it, and her colors really explode after she eats it. The Ocean Nutrtion flakes are good, along with the frozen. If you can get other seafoods into the diet, like raw peeled shrimp or chopped squid, that would be good too.
The point I'm trying to make here, to summarize, is that the sytem must be tight, top to bottom, before you're really going to be successful. The illness, more than likely is the result of inbalances within the system that must be stabilised. Unfortunately, this doesn't happen overnight. You must be patient. I know that's not the American Way - we are horrible with the instant gratification thing - but it is imperative for long term success. You can't drop 5 or 6 hand sized fish in a new saltwater system and expect things to work. Bioload flux in a tank is serious stuff for these guys. This isn't freshwater. Bad things happen way faster in marine setups, as you're experiencing now. This was a little long/involved, so if you need me to clarify anything just post back. Good luck friend. Peace.
DJ
= 8-->{I>
That gives us a little more to work with. Firstly, I suspect that the prob you're having, as far as the disease goes, is with Oodinium - or saltwater velvet. I can't be certain, of course not having seen it, but from the description that's what it sounds like. An easy way to see it is to look down the side of the fish as it swims toward you. If you see a yellow/grayish sheen, dusting across the scales/skin, that's more than likely what it is. It's one of those diseases that's very common, and more than likely, lies dormant in just about every system, much like ick does. The problem is that when it gets out of control, it is deadly, and a bitch to erradicate. The parasite infests the animal by burrowing into the skin and gills, much in the same way as ick. It becomes deadly when it clogs the gills, suffocating the animal, and by causing secondary bacterial infections at lesion sites. It also has a propensity to strike fully stocked systems that are btwn 4-6 months old. I don't know why that is, but I suspect that it may have something to do with the life cycle of the organism (I'm sure Dr Marini can weigh in with more detail here), and the recency of the setup. Anyway, and here is the bad part - the only way I've found to kill these little creeps is with copper. Nothing on the market, I have found, works, other than copper. If you've ever had to deal with copper dosing you already know it's a pain in the neck. The levels must be dosed stronger than what you would use to kill ick. The last outbreak I erradicated took me 6-8 weeks at a dose that was 50% higher than recommended. OK, so you need copper, AND a test kit - you must have a test kit so you can measure the ammount of copper in the system at any given time. Copper binds, is adsorbed, and absorbed by any, and all things in the system - from the glass to the sand to the rocks. This means that the systemic copper fluctuates, so it must be dosed daily, and maintained.
This creates a number of titanic problems for folks trying to maintain a natural system. The biggest is that copper does not discriminate - it kills everything without a backbone. Worms, pods, shrimp, snails, planaria, rotifers - in a nutshell all of your microfauna. I believe, that in this case since you've elected to go with a FOWLR, the cure may actually be worse than the disease. Treating the animals in a secondary system won't work because the disease remains active in the main system for months.
So, what's the solution?
Before we get there let's take a look at the main culprit behind fish getting ill in our systems - stress. Fish that are stressed are many times more likely to get sick than those that are comfortable with their surroundings. That's not to say that unstressed fish don't get sick, they do, but they are far less likely to in a system that's healthy, and compliant to their needs. Stress can be caused by many factors, just as it is with people. The most common form of stress is caused by overcrowding. Overcrowding causes problems on many levels. Sea animals need space - lots of space. They came from the ocean, after-all, they're used to having lots of 'legroom'. I've seen more examples of diseased animals in wholesale operations crammed together in cubicles. That's one of the reasons that suppliers rely so heavily on copper in their retention systems, to keep the pests under control. Anyway, bioloads that are lean in the begining, are far less likely to produce sick fish, as a general rule.
Also, systems that are 'new' can cause stress. Of course, as you prob already know, systems that haven't fully cycled are murder on the inhabitants that must suffer through the process. When waste levels externally become higher than waste levels internally (inside the organism) the livestock, literally drown in their own metabolic poisons. Fortunately, we have beneficial bacteria that take care of all of this, but it takes time for them to get established. In some cases it can take several months for a system to properly cure out. During this critical period there may be several chemical shifts and fluctuations, some of which are stressful to the animals we keep. In fact it's not uncommon for parameters to be not entirely stable 6-8 months into the life of an active living network. The fact that you're having trouble with your tang & angel is not surprising. These guys tend to be super sensitive to anything but pristine conditions, esp tangs. Tangs have earned the reputation of being 'ick magnets' due to there inability to adapt to stress and avoid infestation. Some more than others.
What I recommend - You're not going to like this.
I think that your situation warrants that you let the disease burn itself out. My foremost recommendation is that you just leave them where they are and discontinue medications; chances are that's only going to make things worse by stressing the system even more. If it is in fact velvet, you're going to lose most everything anyway, but there is an outside chance some fish may survive. Some are pretty resistant, though those animals are few and far between. I would let the system fallow for at least 2 months after the remission of symptoms. That means feed the inhabitants, and change water when you need to, just like you're doing now - even with the diminished bio-load. Even if the tank ends up barren of fish life. The idea is to allow the bio system to realign itself. To achieve a balance, if you will. You must develop the infauna capable of controlling the parasite. The only way to do this is to allow it to correct with time. It's going to be difficult, but you must be disciplined. If you attempt to add another fish too soon you're going to start the disease process all over again, and you'll be right back where you started. When you do add fish, add tough guys like blennies or damsels. One at a time. They'll be your canaries.
Your other option, is to move all the fish to another system, even if you have to give them away. Take them someplace where they can either be treated, or can recover. Of course, this is going to be difficult as you wouldn't want to introduce an aggitated pathogen into a healthy system (like a friends tank for example). Maybe you could setup a hospital tank using water from the main tank. This is going to be a difficult task as a 'new' tank puts you right back where you were before, with unstable water params and such. It really would be alot of work, and prob would not be successful, at this point.
OK - lets address some of the systemic problems.
1. Flow - moving 700 gallons per hour through a system that big is prob not enough. On my 115 angel setup I have a Mag 950 as my return, Mag 1200 blowing through a modified Aqua-C EV-150 skimmer, with a Magnum 330 canister filter (being used as a bug hatchery). I turn the water over 12-15 times an hour. The fish you want to keep are accustomed to high velocity water in the wild. The more O2 you can push into the water, the better.
2. Salinity - the salinity of seawater runs btw 1.024-1.026. All the critters in FOWLR setup are going to prefer this range, regardless what the dude at the fishstore tells you. This is what they live in, in the wild, so do what you can to duplicate it. Also, mix your own water. It's cheaper, and you don't have to lug buckets of inconsistently mismixed store water back and forth from the shop. This will also allow you to change out larger percentages at once. Though I concede it's excessive, I do 75% changes every 3 weeks.
3. If you're going to make a sandbed, dude, make a sandbed. Add at least 3 more inches of sand into you refugium. The only way to increase your biocapacity is to increase the surface area. Add more sand to the main tank, as well. You don't have to do this all at once, but you really should do it. You don't have to buy livesand. Buy this sugar sized stuff in the bag, (if you can get a couple of bags of Southdown from someone/somewhere that would be great) and get ziplock bags of sand from club-members at the next meeting to seed it with. You need to get your beneficial bug numbers up.
4 diet - all I can say is make the diet as diverse as you can. Go to the Asian food store and buy red or purple laver/nori and feed a few times a week. My Blueface loves it, and her colors really explode after she eats it. The Ocean Nutrtion flakes are good, along with the frozen. If you can get other seafoods into the diet, like raw peeled shrimp or chopped squid, that would be good too.
The point I'm trying to make here, to summarize, is that the sytem must be tight, top to bottom, before you're really going to be successful. The illness, more than likely is the result of inbalances within the system that must be stabilised. Unfortunately, this doesn't happen overnight. You must be patient. I know that's not the American Way - we are horrible with the instant gratification thing - but it is imperative for long term success. You can't drop 5 or 6 hand sized fish in a new saltwater system and expect things to work. Bioload flux in a tank is serious stuff for these guys. This isn't freshwater. Bad things happen way faster in marine setups, as you're experiencing now. This was a little long/involved, so if you need me to clarify anything just post back. Good luck friend. Peace.
DJ
= 8-->{I>
