Any Lanthanum Chloride users here? (1 Viewer)

[jqsquared]

Known about LC to reduce phosphates for some time now, used the Phosfree brand from Leslies when I was curing my Pukani which dropped my levels to .03ppm when I setup the tank. Burning through GFO trying to keep my levels down thought about revisiting this, been reading the old threads on RC this morning. Not sure if this "fad" went away or if its still very much alive. Anyone still using it to manage phosphates care to share their experiences and/or method by which they dose?

Rob

 

[FarmerTy]

Risk/reward wasn't worth it to me to save money. If GFO accidentally got out of the reactor, it wouldn't be the end of the world. If Lanthanum got out, you may have dead fish and coral.

I have some on hand as well as 10 micron filter socks to cure rocks whenever needed but I don't use it for anything else.

How do you plan to implement it in your tank if you do decide to use it instead of GFO?

 

[paraletho]

Risk/reward wasn't worth it to me to save money. If GFO accidentally got out of the reactor, it wouldn't be the end of the world. If Lanthanum got out, you may have dead fish and coral.

I have some on hand as well as 10 micron filter socks to cure rocks whenever needed but I don't use it for anything else.

How do you plan to implement it in your tank if you do decide to use it instead of GFO?

+1 I have used it to cure bad phosphate impregnated rock but never in my systems and I used 5 micron socks. Let me tell you unless you have ultra clean water 5 micron plugs up fast.

 

[jqsquared]

I think what sparked it up for me was seeing Melevsreef's thread on R2R on Phosphate Rx and people just using that with their skimmer.

 

[webster1234]

I thought about trying LC a few years ago because I could just not get my PO4 levels below .30-.40 ppm. Skimming wet wasn't working and I was burning though an insane amount of GFO and water changes. I read an article about biopellets (by same Melevs'sReef guy) and decided to try them. I had never tried biopellets because I had always heard they were for nitrates and my nitrates were acceptable. Anyway, long story short, adding a biopellet reactor got my PO4 down to .03-.04 ppm within a couple weeks (went slow) and has kept them there for a couple years. And I feed A LOT and have a lot of big fish.

In fact, I am sure that it was the biopellets that were responsible because I was reading on here a while back that some of the guys were getting away from the pellets and letting their tanks "go natural." No filter socks, no carbon, no gfo, etc. They made a good case as for why so I decided to let my reactor naturally wind down. I quit topping it off and let the pellets slowly dissolve. I didn't check the PO4 for 6 months or more because it was always so low. This was with a Hanna checker btw. I checked them recently and was surprised to see them at .35 ppm again.

I filled the reactor back up with pellets and within a week, PO4 was back down to .04 ppm. IMO, biopellets are more "natural" for our tank than adding chemicals like LC. If you are having PO4 issues, I would try a reactor if you aren't running one. Maybe you could do away with your GFO. I only have to touch my biopellet reactor once every 6 months or so and that is just to clean it up and top it off. I have saved a ton of money on GFO, not to mention time rinsing that nasty stuff off.

 

[Reefahholic]

I use NO3-PO4X. It's super powerful.Although I don't need it right now and probably won't ever with this new system.

 

[FarmerTy]

Maybe your situation is an anomaly but biopellets predominantly remove nitrates, not phosphates. The principal behind it is adding a carbon source, which is usually deficient in our systems, to grow bacteria. The bacteria require carbon, nitrates, and phosphates to grow and multiply, though predominantly nitrates to almost a 18:1 ratio over phosphates if I remember correctly. So basically, 18x more nitrates than phosphates, which is why they are considered mainly for nitrate removal with just a hair of phosphate removed with it.

For you to lower your phosphates that much, you'd have to have a pretty high nitrate concentration as well. Do you?

 

[webster1234]

Maybe your situation is an anomaly but biopellets predominantly remove nitrates, not phosphates. The principal behind it is adding a carbon source, which is usually deficient in our systems, to grow bacteria. The bacteria require carbon, nitrates, and phosphates to grow and multiply, though predominantly nitrates to almost a 18:1 ratio over phosphates if I remember correctly. So basically, 18x more nitrates than phosphates, which is why they are considered mainly for nitrate removal with just a hair of phosphate removed with it.

For you to lower your phosphates that much, you'd have to have a pretty high nitrate concentration as well. Do you?

My nitrates run 5-10 ppm. With the color test kits, its all subjective but I use the Salifert NO3 test kit and have to turn the vial sideways to see any color at all. I use a Hanna checker for PO4 so hopefully it is a little more accurate.

I understand how the whole process of carbon dosing works (I am a chemist) and yes, maybe mine is an anomaly, but you can find numerous blogs and posts out there from others on other forums that have had the same experience as I have with it reducing both nitrates and phosphates. I can also say that when I stopped carbon dosing, my PO4 quickly climbed back up, and when I started it back up, it came back down. Nothing else was done any differently. I don't run carbon or GFO, no macro algae, and only a skimmer. I only do a 5-10% water change weekly. You can see on the other post how many fish I have and how much I feed. Say what you want, I say it works (for me). Also, I run the Reef Octopus bioispheres as my carbon choice. I like how they are little round balls and tumble much better in the reactor than the cylinders that the other manufacturers offer. They are less likely to clump up and create hydrogen sulfide.

 

[FarmerTy]

Sorry, didn't mean to imply that biopellets don't remove phosphates as I can clearly demonstrate on my own system that they do as well.

The anomaly to me is that your concentration is affected that much by biopellets alone. Every tank is different so I'm not going to refute the fact of what you observe, especially from someone with a scientific background as well.

Any potential theories as to why your biopellets result in such a high uptake of phosphate that you can think of? Anything particularly unique about your setup that you think contributes to it?

I tinkered with trying to balance my biopellet reactors uptake of phosphates a few years back by dosing potassium nitrate to increase the nitrate concentration in my tank so that it allowed for even more uptake of phosphate in my system. Basically, the biopellets, which reached full potential, stripped the nitrates out of the system and left some residual phosphate. I attempted to add more nitrates to the now nitrate-limited system to force more uptake of phosphates but the phosphate concentration never lowered beyond 0.06 ppm so I just went back to using GFO with biopellets again so scrub any leftover phosphates down to my desired 0.03 ppm. Also, I got caught up in the experiment and didn't think that if it worked out in my system, I'd be creating more work by having to dose potassium nitrate then just to run GFO and swap it monthly like I do.

 

[webster1234]

Interesting theory with KNO3. The only thing I can think of that we might be doing differently is I don't have a deep sand bed and my sand gets stirred (vacuumed) almost weekly so I'm pretty sure there is no denitrification going on there. Bacteria in a deep sand bed consume NO3 so maybe you are losing some there where I am not. The only other thing I can think of is maybe I have a strain of PO4 consuming bacteria that you don't. I did seed my reactor with bacteria when I started it up. Other than that, I have no idea what I am doing to create such a low PO4 reading.

You would think as much food as I dump in the tank, it would be higher. I think I am going to order a nitrate Hanna checker just to get a digital reading on what my nitrates are. My Hanna for PO4 varies from .03-.07. Then I get my Triton water test back this weekend and it says my PO4 is .012 ppm. I find that kinda hard to believe. I wish Triton could test for NO3. I don't really have any SPS other than a couple of Monti's and my LPS like the dirtier water so I'm not worried about trying to get it lower. So for me, when I see nutrients this low, my thought is woo hoo, I can feed my fish even more Those suckers are already way over weight.

Will the tang police get you for fat fish??

 

[FarmerTy]

Very good point about the different strains of bacteria. Perhaps you should start culturing it and selling it off as a miracle biopellet cure for phosphates.

Are you using the Hanna phosphorus or phoshate meter?

I was curious about the Hanna Nitrate meter but I just don't really need that much accuracy with my nitrates... though it would be interesting to know though.

I wouldn't really put much stock into the Triton test results regarding phosphate, and for sure nitrate if they ever decided to test for it. I'm sure you have more insight regarding the chemistry aspect of it but I just remember always having to send off groundwater samples I collected when in the field in a cooler full of ice so that the sample is received at around 4 degree celcius. That way, bacterial interference would not have skewed the nitrate concentration in the VOA. I never had a project where I needed to test for phosphates but I'd imagine the same principles apply. I couldn't imagine how skewed the results would be when shipped at room temperature, with bubbles, across the ocean, and then tested weeks later.

How often do you do Triton results? I've been doing them yearly to monitor annual trends.

I've actually been debating feeding my fish a little less. They've been getting on the large size and with the amount of high fat content food we give them, I keep reading research on how this overwhelms their livers and could lead to premature death. All just theory for now but it did put a thought in my head regarding how much I feed and the potential implications from it.

 

[Mark L.]

I've used Phosphate Rx many times in the past with great results. I used per the instructions and never had issues. My phosphates stay in check now and I haven't had to use any in quite some time.

 

[jqsquared]

I have never since starting this tank up last fall had any record-able nitrates. But I did have low phosphate readings for a couple of months in the good range .04 or so. Then I had a GHA outbreak. My phosphates of course read 0. Still had a nitrate test of 0 as well. I feel like the process in which i cleaned my rock was very very thorough but because it is pukani theres a possibility its leaching out.

I still have GHA in some spots and am currently pulling it out and doing massive water changes which doesn't seem to do anything. I started dosing potassium nitrate with the thoughts that increasing my nitrate levels would let me use GFO to reduce phosphate. Didn't really do anything other than the benefits of having some nitrate in my system.

I do have some NO3PO4 that I started thursday or friday to see if maybe that might be effective. Although it seems very counter intuitive to add nitrates then dose the nopox in attempts of lowering that phosphate number.

I also have taken virtually every rock out and scrubbed off all the GHA. This worked well for about a month then slowly it came back.

My SPS looked better when I wasn't jacking with the system. Now a lot of my SPS have browned. Just a little frustrated and running out of ideas.

 

[webster1234]

I have never since starting this tank up last fall had any record-able nitrates. But I did have low phosphate readings for a couple of months in the good range .04 or so. Then I had a GHA outbreak. My phosphates of course read 0. Still had a nitrate test of 0 as well. I feel like the process in which i cleaned my rock was very very thorough but because it is pukani theres a possibility its leaching out.

I still have GHA in some spots and am currently pulling it out and doing massive water changes which doesn't seem to do anything. I started dosing potassium nitrate with the thoughts that increasing my nitrate levels would let me use GFO to reduce phosphate. Didn't really do anything other than the benefits of having some nitrate in my system.

I do have some NO3PO4 that I started thursday or friday to see if maybe that might be effective. Although it seems very counter intuitive to add nitrates then dose the nopox in attempts of lowering that phosphate number.

I also have taken virtually every rock out and scrubbed off all the GHA. This worked well for about a month then slowly it came back.

My SPS looked better when I wasn't jacking with the system. Now a lot of my SPS have browned. Just a little frustrated and running out of ideas.

I was having GHA issues during the first year that I got my tank up and running. Fought it for hours on the weekends, siphoning it off of the rocks (takes a long time on an 8' tank), only to watch it come back in a few days. In fact, at times, it got so bad that you couldn't even see the rocks. Just green. I was doing huge water changes like everybody told me to, skimming wet, feeding less, burning through tons of GFO, you name it, I was doing it or did it.

That is when I took a long hard look at LC. After talking to numerous people and reading a lot, I decided against it. The mechanics of how it works just didn't jive with how I wanted to fix the problem. That is when I decided to give you know what...biopellets a try. Between the pellets and keeping the neck of my skimmer clean and having it skim a little wet, it cured my GHA problem. It hasn't come back since. And I feed a lot, only change 5% water a week now, and my nutrients are low enough to keep the algae at bay.

 

[webster1234]

Very good point about the different strains of bacteria. Perhaps you should start culturing it and selling it off as a miracle biopellet cure for phosphates.

Are you using the Hanna phosphorus or phoshate meter?

I was curious about the Hanna Nitrate meter but I just don't really need that much accuracy with my nitrates... though it would be interesting to know though.

I wouldn't really put much stock into the Triton test results regarding phosphate, and for sure nitrate if they ever decided to test for it. I'm sure you have more insight regarding the chemistry aspect of it but I just remember always having to send off groundwater samples I collected when in the field in a cooler full of ice so that the sample is received at around 4 degree celcius. That way, bacterial interference would not have skewed the nitrate concentration in the VOA. I never had a project where I needed to test for phosphates but I'd imagine the same principles apply. I couldn't imagine how skewed the results would be when shipped at room temperature, with bubbles, across the ocean, and then tested weeks later.

How often do you do Triton results? I've been doing them yearly to monitor annual trends.

I've actually been debating feeding my fish a little less. They've been getting on the large size and with the amount of high fat content food we give them, I keep reading research on how this overwhelms their livers and could lead to premature death. All just theory for now but it did put a thought in my head regarding how much I feed and the potential implications from it.

I use the Hanna phosphate meter.

I have been doing the Triton tests every 6 months or so. I've started trying to dose iodine and strontium because they are coming back low so I am doing a few more tests now trying to figure out the depletion rate for those elements.

Interesting concept on marine fish and fatty liver disease. I have a couple of parrots and parrots are very susceptible to fatty liver disease without a proper diet. In fact, that is probably the number one killer of parrots (uneducated owners). But I never thought about that with our fish. I couldn't find much research on it other than lionfish being fed freshwater goldfish. Will keep looking though. I like having healthy fish but don't want to love them to death. Thanks for the heads up.

 

[Fish Keeper82]

I have never since starting this tank up last fall had any record-able nitrates. But I did have low phosphate readings for a couple of months in the good range .04 or so. Then I had a GHA outbreak. My phosphates of course read 0. Still had a nitrate test of 0 as well. I feel like the process in which i cleaned my rock was very very thorough but because it is pukani theres a possibility its leaching out.

I still have GHA in some spots and am currently pulling it out and doing massive water changes which doesn't seem to do anything. I started dosing potassium nitrate with the thoughts that increasing my nitrate levels would let me use GFO to reduce phosphate. Didn't really do anything other than the benefits of having some nitrate in my system.

I do have some NO3PO4 that I started thursday or friday to see if maybe that might be effective. Although it seems very counter intuitive to add nitrates then dose the nopox in attempts of lowering that phosphate number.

I also have taken virtually every rock out and scrubbed off all the GHA. This worked well for about a month then slowly it came back.

My SPS looked better when I wasn't jacking with the system. Now a lot of my SPS have browned. Just a little frustrated and running out of ideas.

Do you have an algae turf scrubber?
GFO has been working for me but if one day it did not I would try and control where the GHA would grow in the form of the ATS. Plus its a good nitrate and phosphate export and all natural.

 

[FarmerTy]

I use the Hanna phosphate meter.

I have been doing the Triton tests every 6 months or so. I've started trying to dose iodine and strontium because they are coming back low so I am doing a few more tests now trying to figure out the depletion rate for those elements.

Interesting concept on marine fish and fatty liver disease. I have a couple of parrots and parrots are very susceptible to fatty liver disease without a proper diet. In fact, that is probably the number one killer of parrots (uneducated owners). But I never thought about that with our fish. I couldn't find much research on it other than lionfish being fed freshwater goldfish. Will keep looking though. I like having healthy fish but don't want to love them to death. Thanks for the heads up.

Luckily my calcium reactor media has been keeping my strontium and iodine in place (iodine is more of an assumption... it may be coming from the foods I feed as well) so I haven't ever had to dose either.

Curious your take on the Triton results being a chemist. Does your line of work put you in much contact with lab grade equipment such as the ICP-OES? I was just wondering if you had any insight into the interference issue when trying to analyze multiple analytes that have the potential to overlap and cause interference in measurement. Is it really an issue or would a company such a Triton be able to separate and identify the common overlaps in saltwater samples and be able to apply a correction factor to the results?

Yeah, I wouldn't put too much stock yet into the fatty liver issue with saltwater fish but the topic did come up on discussion and it got me thinking...

 

[jqsquared]

Finally some success in the reduction of GHA! I noticed yesterday that it was starting to die back. Started making some water in anticipation.

I am not sure if I am proving the theory to work but the small addition of nitrate to get me out of a limited state has allowed the N03PO4 to do get in there and do some magic.

Honestly, for what its worth, I probably would have tried biopellets, got my ATS back online or tried Phosphate RX before considering LC. Yes, I know that Phosphate Rx is LC but i think its a bit safer.

 

[FarmerTy]

That's great news! Glad that stuff is starting to recede for you.