At wit's end & tired of trying-algaecyanocrap (1 Viewer)

[PygmyAngel]

Really tired of trying to fix this stuff....had lights off for several weeks and it all dissipated. Definitely tied to lighting. Have been making water changes, cleaning equipment, got critters that don't touch it, done water tests & params ok...but now that lights have been back on for a couple weeks, this stuff is overtaking everything everywhere: on sand, rocks, green star polyps, glass, powerheads, everything.....high flow doesn't bother it. It's like a mixture of cyano, diatoms, hair algae, and crap.

I have only 3 large pieces of rock in my tank right now, as I am 'cooking' all the other pieces to resolve this permanently-it was like this and worse before I moved the tank to the house....those rocks have been cooking for almost 2 months.

But I have life in the tank and short of tearing it all down again and putting all brand new sand and rocks, I don't know what to do. I bought some more sand and I plan to get some more sand critters from IPSF, as I think this may be part of the issue: need biodiversity again in the sand, and all.

I'm at tears at this point. Tired of taking out rocks and scrubbing.

I'm using the Aquar. Pharm. TWF (Tap Water Filter)....so water is filtered best I can get it....plus I use Glacier machine water for top off....nothing straight out of tap....the water is crystal clear....the items aren't....also, I don't have an algae prob. at all in my freshwater tanks, and I don't use filtered water for them. I figure if the water was really bad, it would be evident in them as well.

Here's some pics:
Note the edges of the rock on either side of the coral:

Smothering my GSP:

This one is in my 20g; it's starting to get crappy too:

Oh, and the really white sand, is where I vacuumed the crap off the top of it when I did a water change the other day. Or....where light is not directly hitting it....but the stuff is pretty much everywhere now....

I'm at the point of calling in reinforcements & inviting reefers to come help by having a 'housewarming/reefing/bbq' party. Otherwise, I am tempted to give up.

Sigh.......

 

[Guest]

My first thought would be the lack of ro/di water. I don't trust the tap water filters and you don't know that the glacier machines are maintained as well as they should be. I also recently learned that the Gulf Coast Water Authority pretty much paved the way (historically) for the use of chloramines in tap water.

My suggestion would be to invest in a simple ro/di unit from buckeye (~$115) and see if that helps. This would probably pay for itself in short order considering how many tap water filters you might be going through.

Other than that my only question would be are you growing macro in a refugium?

 

[KrAs]

OK I have definitely been there, I was ready to quit and start over as well, so I know how you feel. First, unfortunately it is your water, I to used nothing but tap water with some sort of de-chlorinator for my fresh water tanks with no problems, ever! So I do feel your pain.

Now, solving the problem. I'm sure you will get a ton of ideas and answers so this is my 2¢.

First, I took every rock that I could out of the tank did a fresh (tap water) dip and scrubbed (with a toothbrush) each one as clean as I could, including those with corals on them. I was careful not to get tap water on the corals themselves but I did scrub around them. I also cut my lights (which were PC's at the time) to 8 total hours a day.

Second, I did 20% water changes every week using only water from Krogers, thanks to Markieb.

Third, I got myself a tuxedo urchin which did a fantastic job and eliminated hair algae like a mad man. Which after adding him I cut back to 10% water changes weekly.

Fourth, I added a refugium which I personally feel is one of the biggest contributors to my tanks current health status.

I have now upgraded my lighting and added 4 hours to the total light time. Granted my tank is not perfect but my algae problem is almost completely licked and I can finally sit back and look at my tank without cringing. Now I'm not to sure how long you have been battling this but I went through several months (which seems like years) of nothing but red cyano and hair algae. So best of luck in your battle, and remember you are not alone.

:crowd:

 

[Guest]

Do you use a skimmer on the tank? My 20G tank was completely stable until I removed the pump to my skimmer. I had had some stray current and was trying to figure out which pump it was. I left the skimmer off for a few weeks while I dealt with a wedding and stuff. Well, I came home last weekend to see the whole tank covered in cyano and nasties. I had never seen the likes of this and freaked. I vacumned out all the nastied and did a 50% water change. I re-installed the skimmer and have not seen a lick of problems. I also put my feeding schedule on every other day for a while. I have a hang on the back sealife skimmer that I got at aquarium land. It was a little expensive but works really well for a nano. Well, that is my 2 cents worth.
I would hate to see you give up. Let me know if I can come over and help you remove the nasties.
I also changed over to ro water. I was using well water with no problems, but decided to take it up a notch.
Of course, since switchin over, I have had two tank issues. Crash is such a nasty word.

8O

 

[PygmyAngel]

No refugium, no sump. I've never had them, though, and I've had this tank since 1/01. It's gone thru a lot, really good and really bad, but that's what frustrates me. I know it has worked with only what I have and have always had.

This is how it looked in '03:

Same practices: AP TWF for filtering water, same city water/Seabrook, same top off water, same equipment, etc.

But with a minimalist setup, I think the problem involves the rocks and sand, as they are the same as when system set up, so they are old, and maybe 'full' of stuff leaching out...this is why I wanted to cook the rocks that I am cooking, but since I have critters, I didn't cook ALL of it at the same time. Maybe I just have to. But the sand, I have to keep removing layers of it to get the stuff off the sand, as it is stuck in/to the top layer. Maybe all is spent, and I just need all new sand and live rock, plus all live sand critters. But at that rate, I don't think I can afford to do it, start all over in essence really.

The photoperiod isn't very long again yet, and I mainly have the actinics come on right now. I don't even have the lights come on till like 1 pm, and then the 50/50s are only on for like 3 hours. The actinics go off around 11:30. I haven't used the halide since last summer.....

I haven't tried freshwater dipping the rocks, guess I could, but I don't want to kill off even more beneficial critters at that......And the rocks in the tank now are large and heavy, one really heavy and VERY hard to remove and scrub, and plus the fact that some corals are attached to it now, it's just a colossal pain.

Like I said, I did buy more sand, but I don't know if I need to remove that whole top layer of algae/cyano encrusted sand, first, or just pour the new sand over it.....will that bury the icky sand crap, or will it just seed the new sand?

If I turn lights off again, I realize that won't help permanently anyway. Not if I ever want to turn the lights back on again.

And KrAs, what Kroger water are you referring to? I even used to use special distilled water called "Samantha Springs" water, from Arlan's grocery store....but after time I still used to get hair algae and cyano outbreaks, so that wasn't miracle water either.

I do use a skimmer: a Prism. I know it's not the best, but it's worked for me. But at this point, upgrading all equipment would not be feasible.
I could try a few 50% water changes and continue to remove algae...sigh.
At this rate, I'll never get anything else done.....

 

[Guest]

i second the notion involving scrubbing your rock with a TB. If your rocks are only a few lbs i'd take it a step further. This is how i got rid of my HA- take the rock, cook it with freshwater instead of salt. Doing so allows me to change out water as often as i want without the hassel of mixing salt. This will save you $$$ in the long run.

As why youre having HA, my guess is your rocks are loaded with Po4 and nitrate. Have you test for either one?

 

[PygmyAngel]

Been scrubbing with toothbrushes like no tomorrow...but the rocks in the tank now are the largest ones I didn't remove to cook just because they are so heavy, and to leave some natural bio. filtering and cycling going on in the tank....but alas, they have gotten worse anyway, and are going to have to be removed and scrubbed....again...

Yeah, I've tested for both recently and tests of course come out low for nitrate and 0 for phos. But we also hear all the time that that may not be indicative of levels anyway, because if these are fueling algae, they may be getting used up faster than able to test for.....so that hasn't helped me much either.

I haven't tried cooking w/ fresh water, but that will surely guarantee no life left on the rock...which I can at least have when putting cooked rocks from saltwater back in tank.....I don't want to kill everything on the rocks, or I might as well start over w/ dead rock, and have it recycle in the tank anyway. I mean, what have been your experiences w/ cooking with fresh water...did you put it back in and have no probs. or what?

 

[Guest]

Freshwater works for me. I clean my glass once a week. That's tangible proof i have very little nutrient in my system and my MH are on 8-9 hrs a day. One more thing to add, i also went BB but i woudnt do it unless you have a good skimmer and torrential flows. Cooking and BB are the best things i've done so far for my tank. Remmember desperate times call for desperate measures, i believe that time has come for you as i recalled your HA problem in the past. Good luck.

 

[Guest]

Forgot to mention, i cooked over 200 lbs. BB also play an important role in water clarity.As a testament i'd like to add my water is so clean i had people come over and compliment how crystal clear my water is. They said my fish look like theyre swimming in mid air. Ask anyone that has BB, they'd tell you the same. I think there are at least 3 people on this board that went BB and net the same result.

 

[toefu]

All of the hair algae survivors do a few things in common.

1. 20% water changes weekly
2. Lower lighting period (not by much)
3. Feed a little less than normal
4. Manually remove the hair algae by whatever means necessary

optional things that seem to work.
1. Add refugium (I did this)
2. Added algae eating creatures, urchin, lawnmower blenny.
3. Added better filtration. (I added an ASM G3)

and even doing all this, takes ~4-6 months to do. these 4-6 months seem like eternity, and is very frustrating because you don't actually start to see results until the 2nd or third month.

I really feel that the best thing you can do is the frequent water changes. It's time consuming and painful, but it's simply the best thing you can do for a tank, and especially much more feasible on a small tank. Removes phosphates, nitrates, replenishes nutrients, ensures proper water chemistry. Most brands of salt are reasonably balanced nutrient-wise.

Doing 1-2 50% water changes can at times be more harm than good, sudden changes in water chemistry can stress out livestock. I'm basically agreeing with all the posts above. it's a 6 month war, be patient, you'll win eventually.

 

[Guest]

Where are your water parameters? where do you keep your alk? how ae you handling nutrient export with no refugium?

Cooking per the RC method will not resolve the problem permanently. All algae form spores and as soon as you put the rock back in the light it will take off again. based on your experiences with reduced light, I'd suggest its a nutrient and/or a herbivore problem

based on the pictures of the sand, I'd suggest you take a close look at your sandbed infauna.

Under certain conditions a sandbed can turn into a nutrient trap, that might be what you are seeing. That isn't to say sandbeds aren't good, I think they're great, but you have to watch them and reseed them often.

 

[PygmyAngel]

Water params tested recently (not this past wkd, but will try to do new tests again tonight), and all params ok, but alk seemed slightly low, between 2 and 3, but don't have my logbook in front of me to remember the exact number. My pH was 8.3, remember that. Calcium between 390-400....

Snails and crabs aren't touching it. I even got a lettuce nudi from Leslea on Saturday. It moved off the rocks onto the glass where this stuff is NOT at.

Sandbed infauna: back to what I was saying above-I do think this is key as well. I keep looking for the abundance of worms and such that used to be in the sand before the teardown and move of the tank from apt. to house, and I'm not seeing it as much. I know I have pods, but not an abundance on the sand, most of them are in my HOB filter, where they like to hang in the cartridges there....I did get an order of sand critters from IPSF back in November....don't think it's enough though. I also got a couple cups of sand from City Pets on Saturday, and bought some fresh nature's ocean sand that comes packed in water, where it has bacteria in it. I think I need another order of stuff from IPSF as well as maybe getting several cups of live sand from MARSHians would probably be VERY helpful. Maybe I'll post for some in the buy/sell/trade forum.

Which brings me back to a question I asked a couple posts before above, no one answered: do I pour my new sand on top of the algae-covered sand you see above, and hope it smothers it, or do I remove all the covered rocks, then remove all the top layer of sand that is covered in the algae, and then put in the new sand on top?

As for nutrient export, well, water changes, skimmer, and filter that hangs on the back. But since I've not had consistent maintenance in the past, this is why I think perhaps the sand and rocks did, in fact, become nutrient sinks in my case. And why I am trying to still use the sand and rocks I have, and try cooking the rocks instead of having to start completely over w/ new sand and rocks....

 

[Guest]

The reason I asked about alk is that there is some evidence that keeping it high either impedes algal growth or increased competion. Both Sprung and Calfo reccomentd levels higher than NSW.

As for the sandbed questions- it's hard to say, but it you are truly at wits end, I would try to siphon it all out and lay down fresh sand with your live cultures as well

 

[PygmyAngel]

Okay, higher alk.....will try to accomplish without plunging Calc. Just got some C-Balance from Leslea anyway, so I'll use the additives to do what I can.

Yeah, guess I'll try to remove all the gunk I can and put down new sand and sand critters as much as possible...And will try to do a significant water change while removing stuff.....

Perhaps I'll see if anyone wants to go in on an order from IPSF....

 

[BrianPlankis]

Which brings me back to a question I asked a couple posts before above, no one answered: do I pour my new sand on top of the algae-covered sand you see above, and hope it smothers it, or do I remove all the covered rocks, then remove all the top layer of sand that is covered in the algae, and then put in the new sand on top?

Definitely remove the crappy sand, do NOT pour the new sand on top. All that will do is kill off the stuff on top of the crappy sand and those nutrients will fuel new stuff to form on top of the new sand.

Like everyone else has been saying, you need to remove excess nutrients. Slow down on feeding and increase water changes (using better water...glacier machine water is iffy) and I would highly recommend upgrading your skimmer. Prizms aren't the worst, but they sure as heck aren't near the top. The reason your tank looked so good before is that your tank was able to absorb the excess nutrients that your skimmer wasn't pulling out for a while and now it is showing.

My skimmer is not the best and it has not been able to keep up with my feeding, so I've had to cut back on feeding and increase water changes to keep my cyano under control until I can afford an ASM G2.

Brian

 

[Guest]

One thing that comes to mind is since your tank has been up and running since '01, I would certainly begin replacing LR one piece at a time. It doesn't have to be expensive this way, and studies have shown that LR can be "used up" after a time.
Replace your LS as well, and I would remove the old sand completely, and if you cannot replace the LS immediately, go BB for a while. I see that you have been scrubbing your LR, and that's what I had to do, but one thing I'm really sure of is that you need to get an RO/DI unit. I'm sorry, but there is just too much unknown about city water, and that was the root of my HA problem last year. I sympathize with you, I know how it can really get you down. Maybe you should have a "clean your tank party" and we'll all come and help! Could be fun! Kind of like an old fashioned barn raising!

 

[PygmyAngel]

I don't use straight tap water. I use this:

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/Produ...ll&Ntx=mode+matchallpartial&Np=1&N=2004&Nty=1

It's not RO/DI, it's only DI, but it is what I decided would be feasible for me...esp. in an apt. when I first started....

Also, if I got an RO/DI now, not only would it be a $ issue, but I have a 2-story house, and it would have to go under the kitchen sink. I cannot hook it up to the washer/dryer, as my washer/dryer are upstairs, and my tank is downstairs. I would have to be hauling ro/di water from upstairs all the time downstairs to the tank. And if I hook it up in the kitchen, where is all the discardable water going to go? And my water bill is already $53. To have that much wastewater would raise my bill anyway, significantly, I would think. And I don't know what to do w/ the water, except haul it out of the house in buckets to water the yard and gardens. So the money and time that it would seem to be saved by the RO/DI instead of a DI cartridge that I have to buy, doesn't seem that big of a difference anymore, in my scenario. Plus, you still have to buy new parts for the RO/DI on a regular basis, and that's not cheap either. I'm not trying to be negative, I've just thought this through as well, and it doesn't seem to be a better option.

Yeah, I know that the LR and LS can get 'used up'....that's why I have been trying to cook the LR, maybe fixing some of the issue, as well as buying more sand. The thing with one piece at a time, well, I just got a piece of rock back from Wildfire, for instance, as he had 'borrowed' it last year. Well, the crap that's covering everything in my tank, spread right to that rock as well. Any new pieces are getting tainted anyway. I was trying to avoid removing everything and starting all new, as I don't have money for that much sand and rocks all over again, and new equipment and all. I just bought a house. I can't afford $200/rocks, $50/sand, $200 new skimmer, and $200 new RO/DI unit, when I have everything I have had for all this time. If it's never going to work again, I then just need to sell it all.

And yeah, I would like to have people come over and work on the tank w/ me/help me figure out what to do, offer a hand if it involves removing large amounts of sand, rock, and scrubbing....but I just had some MARSH people help me move it in October, and the October before that, I had another huge outbreak and had a couple people come help me clean it then too. People are probably tired of me asking for labor/physical help w/ my tank....

 

[PygmyAngel]

I would also like to point out that my 20g reef does not look like my 75g reef. There is one rock in the 20g that's getting stuff on it, and I am going to clean it up; I posted the picture on page 1. However, the sand, other rocks, corals, powerheads, etc. in my 20g don't have any of the algae/cyano crap that the 75g does. If it was just an RO/DI water issue, I would think that tank would like just like the 75g....

 

[Guest]

you're probably right. Sorry not to have been much help, I can certainly understand your discouragement.

 

[Guest]

If you did got RO dI you could use a boost pump to recerculate the water water.

I have had the same problem and i was using RO DI water. What i did was clean my rocks by hand, clean the sand, then i added a phosban reactor.