Chemistry: What's Most Important? (1 Viewer)

[Cody]

This is something that I've been toying around with over the last few years, but I'm starting to settle on the fact the the "big three" (alk, cal, and mag) aren't as important as I thought they were. After having used a Trident for years now that's regularly calibrated, I'm just not so sure how important those ever were. I've watched those numbers slowly trot all over the graph and didn't notice a change when they were on polar opposite sides. Mind you, the operative word here is "slowly", especially when it comes to alk. Cal and mag though? They can bounce around a lot and seem to have zero effect. On the other hand, I have found nitrates and phosphates to be vastly more important than any other chemistry parameter that I test for. If those get out of range then my tank has significant, and immediate impacts. Are y'all's experiences similar? How would you weight nutrients versus the traditionally three parameters that people test for?

 

[Reefahholic]

N&P can make or break a system.

Hold the dosing for your main 3, and let’s find out how important they are. Hehe.


Regarding nutrients and reefers that say anything goes or it doesn’t matter. Let’s see if that is true. Look at my rocks in the top pic. Now look at the rocks in bottom pic. Tanks are the exact same age. Do nutrients matter? Is the ratio important?



Here’s a guy I’m helping battle Ostreopsis Dino’s. 4 week progress.



For me…nutrients are very important, but I believe everything is important as a whole.

 

[Reefahholic]

Cody has always used this meter when he’s testing, and I’ve tried to get him to pick up a few others, but it falls on deaf ears.

 

[reeftopia]

personally I dont like hanna, bought 3 different packages of test media and got 3 different results. If your testing with the same packets
you get the same results. Try a different packet get a totally different result.
I have to check alk 4 to 5 times a week unlike Cody I can tell a big difference when it drops into the 7s. Too high doesnt seem to matter.
Alk drops in my reef quickly because large clams and mucho sps

 

[Erin]

This is something that I've been toying around with over the last few years, but I'm starting to settle on the fact the the "big three" (alk, cal, and mag) aren't as important as I thought they were. After having used a Trident for years now that's regularly calibrated, I'm just not so sure how important those ever were. I've watched those numbers slowly trot all over the graph and didn't notice a change when they were on polar opposite sides. Mind you, the operative word here is "slowly", especially when it comes to alk. Cal and mag though? They can bounce around a lot and seem to have zero effect. On the other hand, I have found nitrates and phosphates to be vastly more important than any other chemistry parameter that I test for. If those get out of range then my tank has significant, and immediate impacts. Are y'all's experiences similar? How would you weight nutrients versus the traditionally three parameters that people test for?

Do you primarily keep zoas? I imagine the big three are more important for SPS ...

 

[Erin]

Also, mag does not "bounce around"... might be inconsistent testing?

 

[SCUBAFreaky]

This is a very compelling discussion. I have found in all the years that I've had a reef tank that tanks are like all of my ex-girlfriends. Every single one is completely different. Tanks are the same way. What may work on your tank may not work for me. And vice versa.

I agree with @reeftopia that if my Alk drops below 7 then my corals get upset. Curious @Cody when you say that you "didn't notice a change when they (alk, Cal, Mag) were on polar opposite sides", were the levels still in an "acceptable" range though? For me Alk is important, Mag is not and Calcium is somewhere in the middle. If they shift from low to high end or high end to low end slowly over time but still in the acceptable range, my corals don't seem to mind too much. So my Mag does move around over long periods of time from 1350 to 1500 but I NEVER dose Mag. It gets controlled with monthly water changes. If Alk drops below 7 or Cal drop below 325ish however, my corals start to talk to me.

But here's the reason I am making this post. My tank has always had high phosphates. If I don't use a baggy of GFO in my sump and change it out regularly, it can climb to over 1.0. I know most of you will freak out by that number, but looking at my corals, you can't tell. In fact, I hadn't checked it in a while, and the bag of GFO hadn't been changed since May, and checking it yesterday the phosphate was 1.05. You can't tell by looking at my corals. But here's the key, that level didn't get there over night. It took months. And when I replace the GFO, I won't go overboard. It will take a month to 6 weeks to get back to the phosphate sweet spot. And here's the other kicker, the sweet spot for phosphates in my tank is somewhere between .25 and .5. Again, every girlfriend is different. And I'll leave you with that. Merry Christmas!

 

[Cody]

Do you primarily keep zoas? I imagine the big three are more important for SPS ...

Well, that’s another topic for another thread. I grow everything all in the same tanks.

 

[Cody]

Cody has always used this meter when he’s testing, and I’ve tried to get him to pick up a few others, but it falls on deaf ears.

Nah I’ve been using this one on my reef tank but not sure what to do with the parameters

 

[Cody]

This is a very compelling discussion. I have found in all the years that I've had a reef tank that tanks are like all of my ex-girlfriends. Every single one is completely different. Tanks are the same way. What may work on your tank may not work for me. And vice versa.

I agree with @reeftopia that if my Alk drops below 7 then my corals get upset. Curious @Cody when you say that you "didn't notice a change when they (alk, Cal, Mag) were on polar opposite sides", were the levels still in an "acceptable" range though? For me Alk is important, Mag is not and Calcium is somewhere in the middle. If they shift from low to high end or high end to low end slowly over time but still in the acceptable range, my corals don't seem to mind too much. So my Mag does move around over long periods of time from 1350 to 1500 but I NEVER dose Mag. It gets controlled with monthly water changes. If Alk drops below 7 or Cal drop below 325ish however, my corals start to talk to me.

But here's the reason I am making this post. My tank has always had high phosphates. If I don't use a baggy of GFO in my sump and change it out regularly, it can climb to over 1.0. I know most of you will freak out by that number, but looking at my corals, you can't tell. In fact, I hadn't checked it in a while, and the bag of GFO hadn't been changed since May, and checking it yesterday the phosphate was 1.05. You can't tell by looking at my corals. But here's the key, that level didn't get there over night. It took months. And when I replace the GFO, I won't go overboard. It will take a month to 6 weeks to get back to the phosphate sweet spot. And here's the other kicker, the sweet spot for phosphates in my tank is somewhere between .25 and .5. Again, every girlfriend is different. And I'll leave you with that. Merry Christmas!

Alk can fluctuate between acceptable ranges, and like you said, it happens somewhat gradually. Similar story for magnesium and calcium as far as gradual, but if they go outside acceptable ranges, I don’t notice a problem. I think alk is far more important than the other two because it’s much less readily available, and it is tied to pH as well. Even if calcium dips to say 250, there’s still a lot of readily available calcium.

If you understand the role that magnesium plays in coral growth, then you realize how unimportant it is. From my understanding and reading, it really just acts as a substitute for calcium on one off situations of calcification. It’s been a while since I read he Randy Holmes Farley article about it, so correct me if I’m wrong.

As far as every tank being different, I agree. However, I do not believe that every coral is different when it comes to chemistry. They all come from the same place with the same parameters, softies, LPS, and SPS alike. Now, having said that, it seems that you can condition corals to different environments. I’ve had frags in the same spot for a year or two with the same parameters that never did anything, then decide to become a colony overnight. I think that might be the conditioning phase, but that’s all speculation. Point being, once they get used to a certain consistency then you need to keep it. However, is that what they prefer, or is it that just adjusted to it? If you get a frag that has thrived in 11dkh for years and put it in your tank at 7.5dkh, then is it the case that your water parameters are off, or that the coral has grown accustomed to an environment different from which it came?

 

[Cody]

N&P can make or break a system.

Hold the dosing for your main 3, and let’s find out how important they are. Hehe.


Regarding nutrients and reefers that say anything goes or it doesn’t matter. Let’s see if that is true. Look at my rocks in the top pic. Now look at the rocks in bottom pic. Tanks are the exact same age. Do nutrients matter? Is the ratio important?



Here’s a guy I’m helping battle Ostreopsis Dino’s. 4 week progress.



For me…nutrients are very important, but I believe everything is important as a whole.

I see your point, and of course they’re mostly all important to some degree. I don’t believe that matching the ocean parameters on everything is the best approach, but that’s yet again another thread.

In my experience, having low alk in the 5dkh range seems to have little if any effects on coral health, so long as you slowly raise it back up. If the nutrients bottom out, it’s guaranteed death for some of the corals, in my experience.

 

[Reefahholic]

Nah I’ve been using this one on my reef tank but not sure what to do with the parameters

That is a good checker right there. Gets it just right!

 

[Reefahholic]

I see your point, and of course they’re mostly all important to some degree. I don’t believe that matching the ocean parameters on everything is the best approach, but that’s yet again another thread.

In my experience, having low alk in the 5dkh range seems to have little if any effects on coral health, so long as you slowly raise it back up. If the nutrients bottom out, it’s guaranteed death for some of the corals, in my experience.

Completely agree. Not only of the nutrients bottom will things die, but in a newer young system it will completely jack everything up. If you really want to jack up a young tank, let phosphate bottom out.

Older system can handle ULN much better. There’s just more resources available and even if you’re testing zero, there’s nutrients available in the microbial community that can’t be tested for. Also bound to rock and sand. But typically these guys saying that they’re getting zeros…when the ICP comes back they always have a little something there. P .01-.02 and 1-2 N.

I let my Alk drift from 7-9 range. Mostly 7.5-8.5 and it’s always good.

 

[Cody]

Completely agree. Not only of the nutrients bottom will things die, but in a newer young system it will completely jack everything up. If you really want to jack up a young tank, let phosphate bottom out.

Older system can handle ULN much better. There’s just more resources available and even if you’re testing zero, there’s nutrients available in the microbial community that can’t be tested for. Also bound to rock and sand. But typically these guys saying that they’re getting zeros…when the ICP comes back they always have a little something there. P .01-.02 and 1-2 N.

I let my Alk drift from 7-9 range. Mostly 7.5-8.5 and it’s always good.

Yeah I think that's what's meant by a "mature" tank. I don't think that it necessarily ha anything that a new tank doesn't have, with the exception of elements built in for stability. I really noticed this over the last year with leap-frogging colonies to finish building out my fish room. Even moving large LPS colonies from one established system to another creates massive swing because the demand just changed drastically for both systems, despite both of them being "established" or "mature". At the end of the day, if all the requirements of the corals are consistently met, then what difference does the age of the tank make to the coral?

 

[Stickboy97]

I agree with Cody. My ALK can drop to 6 and rise to 9 (slowly of course) and nothing changes, but when I do see things start to go down hill it is always high PO4. Dealing with it now in a tank. I hadn't tested anything but ALK for months, all consistent but recently started noticing nems moving a ton, lost a scoly and goni started to decline.... sure enough high PO4, everything else was good. My fault for not testing. I dose Nitrates in all tanks, and they always respond.... if I have 0 they look like it & show me.

 

[frankc]

I agree with Cody. My ALK can drop to 6 and rise to 9 (slowly of course) and nothing changes, but when I do see things start to go down hill it is always high PO4. Dealing with it now in a tank. I hadn't tested anything but ALK for months, all consistent but recently started noticing nems moving a ton, lost a scoly and goni started to decline.... sure enough high PO4, everything else was good. My fault for not testing. I dose Nitrates in all tanks, and they always respond.... if I have 0 they look like it & show me.

How high was the PO4? The Lobo I had for 20 years used to thrive in a tank where the PO4 was often over 1.0ppm, I think even sometimes over 2.0, so I would think it would take incredibly high PO4 to kill a Scoly.

My beach bum Montipora was a pretty good indicator of high PO4. It was the first to lose color when it got high, and would get it back fairly quickly once it was lowered.

I also have to dose nitrate in my reef tank. It doesn't seem to matter what the number is, as long as it's not 0.

 

[Reefahholic]

Yeah I think that's what's meant by a "mature" tank. I don't think that it necessarily ha anything that a new tank doesn't have, with the exception of elements built in for stability. I really noticed this over the last year with leap-frogging colonies to finish building out my fish room. Even moving large LPS colonies from one established system to another creates massive swing because the demand just changed drastically for both systems, despite both of them being "established" or "mature". At the end of the day, if all the requirements of the corals are consistently met, then what difference does the age of the tank make to the coral?

There is something that is happening with an established system as far as stability or biodiversity that is not happening in a 1 year old system obviously- regardless of chemistry. I have not quite figured that out yet. I really believe it has something to do more with the life (microbes) in/on the rock in the system. It’s obviously helping to export waste, feeding the corals, but I also believe there are just more resources available to the corals. Maybe it’s also controlling some undesirables that would otherwise irritate the corals.

For example…you can take the most healthy rock and sand from Indo…never let it see air, add it to a system…but for some reason the corals will not look as good or grow as well as they will 3-4 yrs later.


Another thing I always find interesting is that you can plumb a small frag tank to a main system that shares the same 10 yr old established water and the frag system will sometimes become cloudy and get Dino’s or
have algae issues. That tells me that the microbes are staying close to the rock/surfaces’s in the main system. They are the main drivers in the ocean so this does not surprise me if they are not present in decent numbers that things go to poop.

With that said…I’m almost 2 years in…not yet…but almost, and the corals are doing pretty well. The tank is very stable on cruise control now. I’ve seen a huge difference from 12-23 months. In that 11 months the system has really transformed. What caused it? I believe it’s just the total chemistry being in check consistently. Not leaving the tank lacking.

I mean…what do you think Cody?

 

[Reefahholic]

How high was the PO4? The Lobo I had for 20 years used to thrive in a tank where the PO4 was often over 1.0ppm, I think even sometimes over 2.0, so I would think it would take incredibly high PO4 to kill a Scoly.

My beach bum Montipora was a pretty good indicator of high PO4. It was the first to lose color when it got high, and would get it back fairly quickly once it was lowered.

I also have to dose nitrate in my reef tank. It doesn't seem to matter what the number is, as long as it's not 0.

I’ve been running at 0.2+ range for almost 2 years. No issues at all. (Not really ideal or by choice…I’ve kinda had to so the Dino’s stay in check.)

I think it just depends on the swing up. If you get there too fast you gonna loose some pieces in some cases especially if the other chemistry is lacking.

I had a massive PO4 swing (0.61) from an auto feeder incident earlier this year and the corals shook it off like nothing happened. If the corals are healthy and the chemistry is good they will take some bigger swings, but if the coral is already struggling and the chemistry is crap, good luck with that. It won’t take much to push them over the ledge.