Healthy Debate (1 Viewer)

[AquaNerd]

Hey everyone...I really wanted to start conversations about big issues related to science. I love science and I feel it is a huge part of our reefing, as well as other daily activities. I'm soon-to-be marine biologist and I've grown up watching National Geographic/Discovery Channel as well as exploring the environment around me, even at a very early age. I live for science and my livelihood will depend on this relationship with this field.

The topics I would like to talk about may be controversial, and people will have wildly varying opinions on the issue. I hope all will play nicely and no bashing will occur. I will not accept any form of bashing and if this trial run doesn't go well I will stop talking about it and will no longer post on this subject. If you have a problem with something I or another member says, please contact them via pm to resolve the issue, or be a bigger person and walk away. If any of the BOD or Moderators feel that any of the issues are too risky or bothersome, please feel free to remove them right away. I will not in any way be offended, just please let me know that you are removing it. I feel that debating and discussing are very healthy for the promotion of knowledge and education.

I'll start off the conversations with a big one. The theory of evolution by means of natural selection. I'm starting off big that way if we have problems now we can end the discussions and never return to them again.

My question to you regarding evolution is, what do you think about it? What do you believe? Do you feel a conflict between science and religion? Would you like to know more about it (i.e. how it works, why it works, and where it's leading to)? Let's get the ball rolling.

 

[AquaNerd]

My beliefs:

I do believe in the theory of evolution by means of natural selection. It makes sense in my mind that things change over time, and that when so many changes have occurred a new species is formed. Over time, when a species changes even more...an entirely new organism arises. Both individuals and populations of individuals change.

 

[Guest]

Let me note now... If you don't think you can debate or discuss any topics civil like, then please don't post. We are all adults, so let's be sure to act like one.

 

[AquaNerd]

thanks kim...i'm really hoping to get a cordial debate going.

 

[Guest]

You the man B go for it!!!

 

[Guest]

Topic

I have often wondered about evolution and are we as trying
to fix something that isn't broke, of what we have learned
in the past trying to change evolution. Seeing what happens
in the oceans and how we a reefers try to change that process.
I have said it before survival of the hungriest

 

[Guest]

I'll start off the conversations with a big one. The theory of evolution by means of natural selection. I'm starting off big that way if we have problems now we can end the discussions and never return to them again.

My question to you regarding evolution is, what do you think about it? What do you believe?

I definitely believe in evolution, especially being that I have been focusing my master's in molecular genetics in hopes of doing a genome at one point in my career. The evidence is there, especially if you understand what it all means on a genetic level, as well as an ecological aspect give that our earth has changed so much over the last billion years.

Do you feel a conflict between science and religion?

Yes. From my perspective there a few lines of thought, and very few can I agree or even understand the basis or evidence to back up, but everyone has their own right to believe what they want. For example, one line of thought is that perhaps God had a hand in the creation of the universe around the big bang and starting it all, or even with the beginning of the earth's primordial soup. I could understand why others will believe that is the case, I mean, who can imagine something so spectacular happening on it's own? The fact is, no one knows for sure. It is all belief and until there is facts and evidence, me and many others out there just won't believe it. Of course religion is a whole other topic so I will just stop there.

Would you like to know more about it (i.e. how it works, why it works, and where it's leading to)?

What do mean? I am pretty confident that I understand how evolution works in general, but we won't really know how things are "evolving" because we are living in such a short window of time, which doesn't allow for us to observe obvious mutations that lead to a change in species or sub-species. What we are seeing today in the world may be a fraction of time that shows many species going extinct, not because of our doing, but perhaps because they just can't evolve fast enough. It is all about adaptation to your surrounding environment, which leads to mutations and evolution. Humans are mutating, but we just don't see it. We are now hairless, before we weren't. When you get cold, you get goose pimples. Do you ever wonder why? The reason is because when we were hairy cavemen and monkeys, we had thick fur, which was part of those hair follicles that give us goose pimples. So when the follicles rise, it "fluffs" up our fur giving us a barrier to the elements. If you have ever seen a bird fluff up, you will know what I am referring to. The air between the fur or feathers and skin helps us keep warm in colder climates. Now, with the earth warmer, we don't need it. The fur has left, but the nervous system hasn't changed yet. Our nervous system is extremely complicated so it is easier to keep stimulus than to mess with the whole programming.

 

[crvz]

I think I'm on the other side of the fence with the topic, though I surely don't have all the answers. The main struggle I have with evolution is the start; how did life first begin. The Miller experiment, in the late 1950s, which demonstrated the hypothetical "primordial soup", did produce a few amino acids (which are the building blocks of life). However, the conditions he used to simulate the "early earth atmosphere" (think methane, ammonia, hydrogen) have since been debunked; I can't recall the details off the top of my head, but in the early 80s some NASA scientists showed how the early earth atmosphere was made up of primarily inert gasses (think CO2, N2, etc) and would not be ideal to create amino acids.

So let's say that this atmosphere is credible, and he created amino acids; that doesn’t yet create life. To get from amino acids to protein, you need long strings of amino acids assembled in the right order, the odds of which are astronomical. And then from there you've got to get enough proteins assembled to create the simplest single cell organism. I won't here go into the details (mostly because I don’t remember them… but I could look them up!), but I've heard that it's analogous to having a blindfolded man randomly select one painted grain of sand out of the Sahara dessert on the first try, and doing it three times in a row. You could argue that with an infinite amount of time, your odds of this happening get to be swallowable. The universe is currently aged at around 14 billion years, and earth at around 5 billion years; but the earth had to cool down prior to being able to support life. Numbers on that put it at around 400 million years, which is hardly an infinite amount of time.

When unable to define the origin of life through credible un-caused/random chance means, the theory of evolution starts to break down. Throw in the weak fossil trail, the Cambrian "explosion of life", the natural degeneration of living objects (my body doesn’t seem to get faster or stronger with the years), and the inexplicable complexity of even the simplest living cells that don't yield decisive proof that each component evolved from a simpler component, it would take a large leap of faith for me to accept evolution.

 

[AquaNerd]

i'll start by saying that i went to a private, christian school nearly all my life. from 1st grade all the way through 12th. i have a fairly thorough knowledge of the bible, as i've also taken bible classes all these years.

there is a conflict between evolution and religion (and by religion i am specifically referring to the literal interpretation of the bible). if you interpret the bible literally, which i think it should, you arrive at a ~6000 year old earth. also, if you read through genesis, you will find that nothing died before adam and eve sinned. this simple statement totally goes against the idea of evolution and the earth's age.

i'll try to simplify evolution and put it into a little nutshell. all organisms on this earth contain dna. this dna gets replicated and split when an organism grows new cells or when simple organisms reproduce asexually (by fission). the replication process can produce errors and variations. this is why you see so much diversity between individuals of the same species. just look at how different each human is from the next. well certain changes in the genome of an organism are beneficial and some aren't. this is where natural selection takes place. for example, if you have a population of two differing giraffes, one with a slightly longer neck than the other with a shorter neck, and a fire blazes through the savannah and burns all the lower vegetation, the shorter necked giraffes won't survive (will starve). they can no longer pass on their genetic information and the shorter necked giraffes will no longer exist or they will move off to another land and become isolated from the long necked giraffes and develop into a different species altogether. even the slightest genetic differences become magnified. the differences accumulate through time and species split and they continue to change.

as far as the origin of life goes on earth...the theories haven't been debunked or proven wrong by any means. the same type of molecules and their concentrations that are proposed to be present on the early earth have been discovered in the cores asteroids/meteorites. and these findings were all confirmed by independent labs. it is also estimated that earth could have cooled off in much less time. if you think about it...the earth still hasn't cooled off yet. we still get geothermal radiation every day and it won't cool off for a very long long time.

you'd also be surprised how many biotic molecules can be produced abiotically. for example, a believed precursor to cell membranes can be produce abiotically in the presence of high levels of heat. i believe they are called microspheres and proteinoids.

 

[crvz]

good words, brandon! Just to point out, I didnt say that evolutionary theories of origin of life have been debunked; merely that Miller's early atmospheric conditions are no longer the accepted conditions. You're accurate in that they havent been proven wrong, but it must also be said that they havent been proven right!

I don't have any problem with natural selection; there's good logic behind it. But (and this is something I quickly accept that I may be wrong at... so give me an example if so!), genetic "errors" or mutations are degenerative. Kim points out that the time to effect on evolution is quite spread out, perhaps beyond the scope of recorded science, but I've never seen evidence to show that a mutation gave a new ability (a different trait, sure, such as longer necks, but never a whole new feature). When I think of a genetic error or mutation, most of the time I think of cancer (unless the X-men movies are on my TV).

And back to the abiotic generation of biotic molecules, I don't deny that they're credible and happen. BUT, show me how they can be credibly formed into life. The complexity of a cell is beyond what I consider appreciably likely to randomly occur.

 

[Guest]

topic

I've often wondered about the test equipment they use on all these
theories and if they themselves have basis of proof in the budding
. Lets say like the hmmm can't even remember the test
to tell how old something is. How do we know its accurate

 

[Guest]

that was suppose to be pudding, budding
hey that's my new word and it means
something, heck I'll even make up a definition
But does that mean you have to believe
what it means or says. Like my sign on name
its my recording name for TM protection so
no one can copy my music and make money off
of it. Now its a made of different letters in my name plus a few extra. And its pronounced La-ambi-anz. So the point was this guy says thats not how you pronounceit. And I said have you heard of the word before and he said no. Well I made the word up and thats the way I want it pronounced. Ever heard of the saying can't
believe everything you hear or read. Unless
you actually witness it yourself, and heck
I've even questioned what I saw. lol

 

[AquaNerd]

i misstated by stating debunked...sorry. i was just saying some of the experiments are still taught today and are still upheld by the scientific community. the experiments will never be proven 100% correct because there is still a lot of unknowns and a lot of speculations. i just thought it was interesting that the same elements and concentrations were found in meteorites...which are themselves relics/leftovers of the formation of the solar system.

the thing about mutations is they happen so often. human dna undergoes about 10^6 mutations per generation. and not all are detrimental. some cause severe problems (i.e. cancer), some don't do anything at all. but our genetics have built in variation, that is caused by shifts/changes in base pairs and various other mutations, as well as reading and replication errors. i'm not saying a simple mutations immediately leads to a beneficial trait. doesn't happen that way.

not every organism of the same species is identical...therefore there is a tremendous amount of variation even in same species groups. how did the variation get there? they got there because dna is expressed differently. even identical twins have differences in their dna. if two organisms of the same species have even one trait that gets expressed differently, the the differences can be selected for. another example, the peppered moth of england. it is naturally a light colored moth that lives on the trunks of birch trees (i believe). this moth has two variances of color. light color and a dark color. the light color was the most prevalent because predators could see the darker moths on the lighter trunks much more easily. well as the industrial revolution hit full stride, the plants became covered in soot. now the white moth stood out. they became prey to many birds, etc. and the dark moth became more prevalent. but after the industrial revolution calmed down and the pollution subsided to some extent, the light colored moths reappeared. this shows the genetic diversity between individuals of this same species.

but let's explore a little deeper, if you will. if the light colored moths simply moved to an area not effected by the pollution, and the pollution continued (didn't initially stop at the end of the revolution) then the lighter colored moths would be genetically isolated from the darker moths. the initial small variations would be slight. but as time went on the moths would become separate species.

now just imagine one species (species 1) that split into two (species 1 and 2). then the species split again, and again, and again, and so on. over time, the changes made by species 20, for example, would be so dramatic when compared back to species 1 that they may no longer even be the same type of animal.

ok, so i've run out of time...now that we are all a bit more confused i'll try to clarify things later. big test tomorrow and need to get back to the school. i'm having fun so far, and it's going smoothly.

 

[wazzel]

My question to you regarding evolution is, what do you think about it?

Ibelieve that beins evolve over time. Favorable traits get passed on and non-favorable ones get changed or dropped.

What do you believe?

I believe in natural selection and eveloution. I also believe there is a creator at the very begining. I do not follow the fundamential Christian teaching that the world is about 6k years old and things were created just as we are.

Do you feel a conflict between science and religion?

I feel there is a conflict, but there is really no need.

Would you like to know more about it (i.e. how it works, why it works, and where it's leading to)?

I have a dicent handel on the basics and that is probably good enough for the depth of conversatins I have.

 

[AquaNerd]

check out these "missing links":
Tiktaalik roseae (a fish with bony legs)

Lungfish (certain species will die if they don't have access to air) order dipnoi

 

[cstewart79]

I doubt evolution because I do not seem to evolve... at least that is what my wife says.

 

[Guest]

Topic

Now thats funny C

 

[AquaNerd]

where's the debate guys??? i was expecting at least some disagreement/arguing.

 

[Guest]

i dont`t belive in evolution in the sense that we evolved to survive. Yes , i`m a Christian and i do believe that God created man in his image and not that of an ape. the biggest problem between religion and science is that as a scientist you have to see to believe.As a Christian , faith is what you base your belief on. I know that to some thats a weak argument but to others thats all it takes.i could write a book to prove may point but unless we agree on the faith issue then we will never agree.just for grins sake-- the Bible( which is inspired by God and just written by man,there is thst faith issue ,)speaks of a water monster(dino)and speaks of the world being world being round and not flat.I know its not speaking of evolution but its a statement that is believe by faith because our only source is the Bible which in the science world its just another book.To argue your point,in the begining,the world was dis organized until God organized it.Its possible that evolution happened during this time.That being said, God is perfect and does not make mistakes. So to say that evolution had to happen to adapt to the world He created does not make sense to me .

 

[Guest]

Not just written by man