Interview with Humblefish & PauB (1 Viewer)

[Subsea]

What do supermodels, the Vietnam War, and the right front fender of a 1955 Oldsmobile have to do with marine aquariums? Absolutely nothing—that is, of course, unless you’re hobby pioneer Paul “Paul B” Baldassano and you’ve just published a book on your six decades of aquarium keeping.




I have followed Paul for 10 years as he was the only person who reefed longer than me. Paul started Reefing 6 months before me in 1971. I have emulated his undergravel reverse flow biofilter. Paul’s focus is fish while my focus is Caribbean mixed garden lagoon.

 

[Subsea]

I bought online version of Paul’s book but haven’t read it in entirety (Paul’s wife has MS and 100% of profits goes to MS research). I prefer to follow him live on hobby forums. In 2018, on r2r, Humblefish asked Paul to start a “no quarantine“ thread which is now at 145 pages. We have exchanged post here and there and I was privelidged to meet he and his supermodel wife at their home on the North Shore of Long Island this past August. He is a real pioneer and an expert on fish physiology.

 

[Subsea]

@Humblefish
Because both Paul & I each feel that stress is a major contributor of fish mortality, I was intrigued with this link that we found from National Library of Medicine:

National Center for Biotechnology Information

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Unfortunately, I was only allowed guest academic access once, so here is a copy/paste from another thread.

“Gut microbiota can affect fish physiology, development, life span, immunity, and barriers against pathogens (Burns et al., 2016; Nie et al., 2017; Smith et al., 2017; Yan et al., 2016). Therefore, the gut microbiota plays an indispensable role in fish fitness. Several recent reviews have centered on the diversity and functions of bacterial communities in healthy fish (de Bruijn et al., 2017), as well as on the external factors that affect fish gut microbiota (Wang et al., 2017) and interactions between gut microbiota and innate immunity in fish (Gómez & Balcázar, 2008; Nie et al., 2017). However, most previous studies have focused on factors that govern healthy gut microbiota, such as diet, rearing conditions, and fish genotype (Schmidt et al., 2015; Sullam et al., 2012; Yan et al., 2016). In contrast, few studies have reported on the interplay among gut microbiota, fish immunity, and disease (Nie et al., 2017). In this commentary, we summarize current knowledge on the associations between fish immunity, gut microbiota, and invading intestinal pathogens. We also highlight recent progress in uncovering the ecological processes of fish diseases”

 

[Subsea]

The previous article dealt with fish internal parasite invasion, this article deals with external parasite invasion. Fish body slime is primary protection against pathogen invasion and using gene expression, fish adjust chemistry of slime coat.

http://fisheries.tamu.edu/files/2013/09/Stress-Its-Role-in-Fish-Disease.pdf

 

[Humblefish]

@Subsea I agree that a healthy gut microbiota plays a large role in bolstering a fish (or human's) natural immune system. Anyone who is not feeding their fish well is just asking for trouble. However, proper nutrition is not the end-all solution to fish diseases in a closed system. Where fish are exposed to much higher concentrations of pathogens than they are in the ocean. You either have to dilute those pathogens (using UV or ozone, etc.) to be more in line with what naturally occurs and/or quarantine your fish to reduce the parasite load in the tank. I know plenty of hobbyists who feed all the right foods, but still battle ich, velvet, etc. in their aquarium. The primary difference is they choose to stock more delicate (disease sensitive) fish than Paul does.

 

[Subsea]

@Subsea I agree that a healthy gut microbiota plays a large role in bolstering a fish (or human's) natural immune system. Anyone who is not feeding their fish well is just asking for trouble. However, proper nutrition is not the end-all solution to fish diseases in a closed system. Where fish are exposed to much higher concentrations of pathogens than they are in the ocean. You either have to dilute those pathogens (using UV or ozone, etc.) to be more in line with what naturally occurs and/or quarantine your fish to reduce the parasite load in the tank. I know plenty of hobbyists who feed all the right foods, but still battle ich, velvet, etc. in their aquarium. The primary difference is they choose to stock more delicate (disease sensitive) fish than Paul

As always, thank you for your insight and contribution to the hobby.

I choose hardy livestock for the same reason and I haven’t seen ich in 20 years.

If I cycled a tank with uncured diver collected live rock & live sand, would predators of pathogens be included in the biodiversity?

I am strongly considering UV in my sponge tank. It is non selective.

 

[Humblefish]

@Subsea I would love to ID specific “predators” of fish pathogens. To date, I have only found this one study which documented how the nauplii of brine shrimp (Artemia salina) consume Velvet dinospores (free swimmers): https://humble.fish/community/index...loodinium-dinospores-by-artemia-1995-pdf.119/

It makes sense to me that all fish pathogens (all life stages) must have something which preys upon them. And stocking an aquarium with such could be the holy grail to controlling diseases in a captive environment. But which animal, plant, fungi, protist and/or monera are these?? For example, a famous marine scientist (Dr. Angelo Colorni) is sure that certain bacteria “gnaw” on Cryptocaryon tomonts and damage them. But when we talked more about it, he never could identify which species of bacteria would do this.

 

[Team Turtle]

Definitely a new perspective to me. But what i love is two different ideas coming together for a productive, civil discussion. Great job guys

 

[Subsea]

@Subsea I would love to ID specific “predators” of fish pathogens. To date, I have only found this one study which documented how the nauplii of brine shrimp (Artemia salina) consume Velvet dinospores (free swimmers): https://humble.fish/community/index...loodinium-dinospores-by-artemia-1995-pdf.119/

It makes sense to me that all fish pathogens (all life stages) must have something which preys upon them. And stocking an aquarium with such could be the holy grail to controlling diseases in a captive environment. But which animal, plant, fungi, protist and/or monera are these?? For example, a famous marine scientist (Dr. Angelo Colorni) is sure that certain bacteria “gnaw” on Cryptocaryon tomonts and damage them. But when we talked more about it, he never could identify which species of bacteria would do this.

After this conversation with you, I pursued the topic with my friend Lasse who ran the Swedish National Aquarium in Stolkholm.

We also discussed how the longer a tank is setup, the more manageable diseases seem to be.

That´s my experiences too, It seem - when you read all disease threads here at R2R that newly started and aquarium younger than 1 year are overrepresented - especially if it is newcomers. However - this could be due to many things - including that more experienced aquarists know how to handle the situation and don't ask for advice.

Lets expand corals to include diverse filter feeders:

My bad - forgotten that. My tank have a lot of sponges - I use them as an indication that everything works well

Sincerely Lasse

I am not young enough to know everything, but neither so old that I forgotten everything
Liberté, égalité, fraternité

Lasse,
I say ”Sponges may be one reason your ecosystem thrives.“

I just did get two new Red Ball Sponges and one of them developed a bacteria infection. When I moved sponge, the smell convinced me to dispose of dying sponge.

My newest and smallest tank: 2 yr old at 30G.

 

[Subsea]

HTML] The sponge holobiont in a changing ocean: from microbes to ecosystems​

L Pita, L Rix, BM Slaby, A Franke, U Hentschel
Microbiome, 2018•microbiomejournal.biomedcentral …


The recognition that all macroorganisms live in symbiotic association with microbial communities has opened up a new field in biology. Animals, plants, and algae are now considered holobionts, complex ecosystems consisting of the host, the microbiota, and the interactions among them. Accordingly, ecological concepts can be applied to understand the host-derived and microbial processes that govern the dynamics of the interactive networks within the holobiont. In marine systems, holobionts are further integrated into larger and more complex communities and ecosystems, a concept referred to as “nested ecosystems.” In this review, we discuss the concept of holobionts as dynamic ecosystems that interact at multiple scales and respond to environmental change. We focus on the symbiosis of sponges with their microbial communities—a symbiosis that has resulted in one of the most diverse and complex holobionts in the marine environment. In recent years, the field of sponge microbiology has remarkably advanced in terms of curated databases, standardized protocols, and information on the functions of the microbiota. Like a Russian doll, these microbial processes are translated into sponge holobiont functions that impact the surrounding ecosystem. For example, the sponge-associated microbial metabolisms, fueled by the high filtering capacity of the sponge host, substantially affect the biogeochemical cycling of key nutrients like carbon, nitrogen, and phosphorous. Since sponge holobionts are increasingly threatened by anthropogenic stressors that jeopardize the stability of the holobiont ecosystem, we discuss the link between environmental perturbations, dysbiosis, and sponge diseases. Experimental studies suggest that the microbial community composition is tightly linked to holobiont health, but whether dysbiosis is a cause or a consequence of holobiont collapse remains unresolved. Moreover, the potential role of the microbiome in mediating the capacity for holobionts to acclimate and adapt to environmental change is unknown. Future studies should aim to identify the mechanisms underlying holobiont dynamics at multiple scales, from the microbiome to the ecosystem, and develop management strategies to preserve the key functions provided

 

[Subsea]

Natural diet and grazing rate of the temperate sponge Dysidea avara(Demospongiae, Dendroceratida) throughout an annual cycle​

Marta Ribes*, Rafel Coma, Josep-Maria Gili​

Institut de Ciències del Mar (CSIC), Passeig Joan de Borbó s/n, E-08039 Barcelona, Spain
*E-mail: mribes@icm.csic.es
ABSTRACT: Sponges are one of the major invertebrate groups inhabiting hard-bottom communities worldwide. In this study, we measured in situ rates of grazing on DOC (dissolved organic carbon), POC (particulate organic carbon), and pico-, nano- and microplankton for the common temperate sponge Dysidea avara throughout a yearly cycle. The natural diet of the species was highly heterogeneous and included procaryotes (heterotrophic bacteria, Prochlorococcus sp., Synechococcussp.) and eucaryotes (protozoa, phytoplankton, and ciliates) ranging in size from 0.5 ± 0.3 (heterotrophic bacteria) to 70 ± 0.3 µm (pennate diatoms). Procaryotic cell clearance rates were higher than those for the other groups, suggesting a higher grazing efficiency upon these prey types. Specific clearance rates showed a pattern of decrease with sponge size increase, although they did not vary with prey concentration or with temperature. Overall, procaryotes contributed 74 ± 14% of the total ingested carbon, pico- and nanoeucaryotes contributed 11 ± 3%, and phytoplankton contributed 11 ± 10%. Therefore, Dysidea avara obtained 85% of its ingested carbon from the fraction smaller than 5 µm and 15% from the fraction larger than 5 µm. However, the partial contributions of the different groups varied seasonally, following the planktonic composition of the water column. During winter, phytoplankton was an important component of the total uptake (26%), whereas during the rest of the year it contributed less than 7% of the total uptake. The capacity of this sponge to feed on a broad size range of prey allowed it to maintain rather constant food uptake throughout the year. These results show the importance of particle type (size) for selective uptake in sponges, as well as the relevance of phytoplankton in the sponge diet. This trophic plasticity may represent an advantage for the species because it attenuates the effects of seasonal fluctuations in the planktonic community. This plasticity in trophic ecology may be one of the main factors contributing to the worldwide abundance and distribution of sponges despite large spatial and temporal variations in food sources.


KEY WORDS: Suspension feeding · Natural diet · Grazing rate · Prey selection · Sponges · Dysidea avara · Mediterranean Sea

 

[Humblefish]

That´s my experiences too, It seem - when you read all disease threads here at R2R that newly started and aquarium younger than 1 year are overrepresented - especially if it is newcomers. However - this could be due to many things - including that more experienced aquarists know how to handle the situation and don't ask for advice.

This has been my experience as well. However, is it because: a) The tank is so young/lacks biodiversity b) Most people start new tanks using dry rock/sand - no biodiversity c) Inexperienced aquarists not knowing all the tricks to disease management and/or fish health.

Interestingly enough, I got A TON of PMs from hobbyists in Texas with 10+ year old aquariums during that big ice storm you all had a couple of years ago. They lost power, and suddenly started seeing ich, velvet and other pathogens on their fish. So, obviously they had only been managing diseases all this time but a stressor event caused their fish to become symptomatic.

 

[Team Turtle]

This has been my experience as well. However, is it because: a) The tank is so young/lacks biodiversity b) Most people start new tanks using dry rock/sand - no biodiversity c) Inexperienced aquarists not knowing all the tricks to disease management and/or fish health.

Interestingly enough, I got A TON of PMs from hobbyists in Texas with 10+ year old aquariums during that big ice storm you all had a couple of years ago. They lost power, and suddenly started seeing ich, velvet and other pathogens on their fish. So, obviously they had only been managing diseases all this time but a stressor event caused their fish to become symptomatic.

That leads me to a question then. How stressed does a fish or tank have to be in order for a disease to show up? I would assume it all depends on fish and overall health of the system. But more so asking to see if there is a common, underlying cause.

 

[Subsea]

No doubt that healthy mature reef tanks excercise ich management. In my case, I have had stress events with no visible ich symptons manifested.

It occurs to me that natural immunity to specific pathogens requires being exposed to those pathogens.

From my point of view, how is a hobbiest closed reef system that has never seen ich because of quarantine and medical treatment of every fish less vulnerable to pathogens than my system which did no quarantine. Each system is vulnerable due to lack of immunity.

 

[Humblefish]

That leads me to a question then. How stressed does a fish or tank have to be in order for a disease to show up? I would assume it all depends on fish and overall health of the system. But more so asking to see if there is a common, underlying cause.

That depends on so many factors: Species of fish, overall health of their immune system, thickness of their slime coat, fish’s stress level, tank conditions, which disease(s) are in the tank, number of pathogens, etc. etc.

For example, Acanthurus spp. Tangs are notoriously prone to parasites - probably due to their thin mucous layer. They don’t need much protection in the wild, because they usually live in crest zones where it is difficult for parasites to attach to anything. Dragonets, on the other hand, have incredibly thick mucous coats. They also slough mucus (and parasites) at night. This is good news for them because they typically are found in lagoons where there is lower flow and parasites can more easily latch onto a fish host.

Then there are certain pathogens which seem to be species specific: Brooklynella wreaks havoc on clownfish, but most other fish seem immune/resistant to it. Chromis & anthias are very susceptible to Uronema, but that particular parasite doesn’t seem to affect other species of fish - even in an aquarium.

 

[Humblefish]

Most hobbyists have never even heard of Trichodina: Trichodina

That’s because unless parasites levels in an aquarium are extremely high, most fish are not bothered by it.

 

[Team Turtle]

I downloaded the book. Not much of a reader but excited to see what I can learn

 

[Reefahholic]

@Subsea I agree that a healthy gut microbiota plays a large role in bolstering a fish (or human's) natural immune system. Anyone who is not feeding their fish well is just asking for trouble. However, proper nutrition is not the end-all solution to fish diseases in a closed system. Where fish are exposed to much higher concentrations of pathogens than they are in the ocean. You either have to dilute those pathogens (using UV or ozone, etc.) to be more in line with what naturally occurs and/or quarantine your fish to reduce the parasite load in the tank. I know plenty of hobbyists who feed all the right foods, but still battle ich, velvet, etc. in their aquarium. The primary difference is they choose to stock more delicate (disease sensitive) fish than Paul does.

I agree, and it’s best to never let it in!

 

[Paul B]

The primary difference is they choose to stock more delicate (disease sensitive) fish than Paul does.

Hogwash. Humble you can't hide, I always know where you are.

 

[Cody]

Hogwash. Humble you can't hide, I always know where you are.

Welcome to MARSH, Paul! It's a pleasure to have you chime in here!