webster1234
Supporting Member
Anybody that knows me knows that I am a freak when it comes to quarantine. I quarantine everything. And I mean EVERYTHING. Fish and inverts of course, but I also QT live rock, corals, and even chaeto. My display is so big with so many big fish that there is no conceivable way to get them all out or house them in a QT.
Anyway, to my story…I recently acquired a few smaller fish. 8 cardinals of different kinds, a Royal Gamma, a bicolor blenny, and a canary blenny. My QT protocol for new fish is TTM (with Prazipro), then 8 weeks of observation. If they look healthy after 8 weeks, I move them to the DT. With these new fish, I did the TTM/Prazi and then moved them to a 40 gallon breeder that I have for observation in my office.
Things had been progressing nicely into week 6, yes week 6. This was the 12 day TTM and 4 weeks of observation thus far. They still needed 4 more weeks of observation. At this point, everyone was eating and doing well. Then I noticed one of my cardinals dead. I had seen the Royal Gamma picking on a few of them so I figured he may have finally killed one. I happened to be talking to Diesel the next day and mentioned…”hey, I think my Royal Gamma is picking on my cardinals, in fact I just found one dead and I think he did it. What do you think about going ahead and moving them to the display? Its been 6 weeks already and everybody looks good. Surely, if they were going to come down with something, it would have shown up by now.”
His response was…”hey, if your protocol calls for 8 weeks observation, then you have to go 8 weeks. Put a divider in your tank if you have to but don’t change your protocol that has worked for you for so long.” I agreed and decided not to move them.
Then, 2 days later, I came in to see my Royal Gamma darting around the tank and flashing on the rocks. My response, “OH CRAP!!” What in the world? I turned on the light and got a magnifying glass. The cardinals that were willing to come out were covered with spots. The rest were hiding in the rocks but I assumed they looked the same. Now I never could tell the difference between ich and velvet. They both look the same to me. But since whatever it was survived the TTM, I had to assume that it was velvet, because TTM only works for ich. Boy am I glad I didn’t move them to the DT.
I have read how fast velvet can wipe out a tank. This has to do with the reproductive cycle of the parasite. The parasite feeds on the fish for 1-4 days, falls off, multiplies x 100-200, then hatches and goes looking for a new host. Once the parasite is attached to your fish and feeding on it, all you can do is give them a freshwater dip in an attempt to get the parasite to release. But as soon as you put him back in the tank, there are lots of free swimmers looking to reattach themselves to your fish. Therefore, you have to medicate with something. The free swimmers for velvet can live like 15 days without a host.
There aren’t too many choices for treatment when it comes to velvet.
Hypo doesn’t work and takes too long to get to the right level (several days).
The herbal “reef safe” stuff is snake oil.
The only real choices are copper and chloroquine phosphate. Copper takes a few days to get to therapeutic levels, all the while new swimmers are attacking your fish (and once they attach, they are pretty much immune to medication until they fall off and multiply, so they get to feed on your fish for a few days). And with velvet, time is very critical because it moves so fast.
With Chloroquine phosphate however, you can go from zero-100 instantly. And you only dose it once. That means that once you dump it in, all of the free swimmers are toast, as are those that are about to hatch (upon hatching). The CP essentially “shields” your fish from further infestation because anything out there that is going to get on your fish will be killed. And it is effective in the water for 30 days (no UV, no skimmer, no carbon of course).
Now, you just have to deal with the ones still on your fish. A fresh water dip can provide some instant relief, and since there is CP in the water, the fish shouldn't acquire any more parasites. The biggest challenge is keeping them alive for 4 days until the ones currently feeding on your fish release and head off to multiply.
There is also the risk of secondary infection from the hole the parasite leaves in your fish when it releases. Therefore, a broad spectrum antibiotic is also needed.
With my fish, as soon as I saw what was happening, I dosed the tank with CP. I dosed it at 50mg/gallon. I elected to observe the fish rather than chasing them down and stressing them further for a freshwater dip. I unplugged the heater also and allowed the temp to drop down to 74. This was an attempt to slow the fishes metabolism and his breathing since velvet attacks the gills, causing the gills to swell and suffocate the fish.
I know some say to raise the temp to 82 to speed up the life cycle of the parasite but with the CP, the fish is now protected from further infestation. I just wanted them to make it for the next 4 days.
Well, today is day 4. I came in to find the fish out of hiding and swimming around. Most of the spots are gone, or numbers greatly reduced. I expect the spots to fully go away over the next few days as the remaining parasites release and head off to multiply (and get zapped when they hatch). I moved the fish to another tank so I could nuke the one they were in. It was full of live rock and I plan to sterilize it and let the rock sit out in the sun for a few days.
I also dosed with Kanaplex just in case any infections try to set in.
The point of this post was:
1. to further iterate the need for quarantine, and an 8 WEEK quarantine at that (since mine showed up at week 6). I have never lost a fish due to disease that made it through 12 days of TTM and two weeks of observation. Everyone that made it that far went on to to survive longer term. Therefore, I was getting lazy and careless and it could have cost me dearly.
2. to keep a “medicine cabinet” on hand for your fish. I was able to dose Chloroquine phosphate right away since I already had some, along with Kanaplex for a broad spectrum antibiotic. If I would have had to order CP online and wait 5-7 days to get it, I am confident all of my fish would be dead.
From now on, I think I am going to skip the TTM and just do a 30 day dose of CP since I now know that TTM is not 100% effective.
Now CP only works on fish. You can’t use it on inverts.
Also, it is harder to get. I got mine from a pharmacy with the help of a really cool vet. But it is also available on ebay from China. I suggest everybody get some and have it available. Its just too inexpensive to not have it.
And there are a few fish that don’t respond well to it. I know wrasses, blue hippo tangs, and anthias are some that don’t do well. I suggest you do a search of fishes before treating. Humblefish has done a lot of research with CP and listed the fish that he found that responded negatively to CP. But the list was pretty short. Do a search for his thread.
Anyway, to my story…I recently acquired a few smaller fish. 8 cardinals of different kinds, a Royal Gamma, a bicolor blenny, and a canary blenny. My QT protocol for new fish is TTM (with Prazipro), then 8 weeks of observation. If they look healthy after 8 weeks, I move them to the DT. With these new fish, I did the TTM/Prazi and then moved them to a 40 gallon breeder that I have for observation in my office.
Things had been progressing nicely into week 6, yes week 6. This was the 12 day TTM and 4 weeks of observation thus far. They still needed 4 more weeks of observation. At this point, everyone was eating and doing well. Then I noticed one of my cardinals dead. I had seen the Royal Gamma picking on a few of them so I figured he may have finally killed one. I happened to be talking to Diesel the next day and mentioned…”hey, I think my Royal Gamma is picking on my cardinals, in fact I just found one dead and I think he did it. What do you think about going ahead and moving them to the display? Its been 6 weeks already and everybody looks good. Surely, if they were going to come down with something, it would have shown up by now.”
His response was…”hey, if your protocol calls for 8 weeks observation, then you have to go 8 weeks. Put a divider in your tank if you have to but don’t change your protocol that has worked for you for so long.” I agreed and decided not to move them.
Then, 2 days later, I came in to see my Royal Gamma darting around the tank and flashing on the rocks. My response, “OH CRAP!!” What in the world? I turned on the light and got a magnifying glass. The cardinals that were willing to come out were covered with spots. The rest were hiding in the rocks but I assumed they looked the same. Now I never could tell the difference between ich and velvet. They both look the same to me. But since whatever it was survived the TTM, I had to assume that it was velvet, because TTM only works for ich. Boy am I glad I didn’t move them to the DT.
I have read how fast velvet can wipe out a tank. This has to do with the reproductive cycle of the parasite. The parasite feeds on the fish for 1-4 days, falls off, multiplies x 100-200, then hatches and goes looking for a new host. Once the parasite is attached to your fish and feeding on it, all you can do is give them a freshwater dip in an attempt to get the parasite to release. But as soon as you put him back in the tank, there are lots of free swimmers looking to reattach themselves to your fish. Therefore, you have to medicate with something. The free swimmers for velvet can live like 15 days without a host.
There aren’t too many choices for treatment when it comes to velvet.
Hypo doesn’t work and takes too long to get to the right level (several days).
The herbal “reef safe” stuff is snake oil.
The only real choices are copper and chloroquine phosphate. Copper takes a few days to get to therapeutic levels, all the while new swimmers are attacking your fish (and once they attach, they are pretty much immune to medication until they fall off and multiply, so they get to feed on your fish for a few days). And with velvet, time is very critical because it moves so fast.
With Chloroquine phosphate however, you can go from zero-100 instantly. And you only dose it once. That means that once you dump it in, all of the free swimmers are toast, as are those that are about to hatch (upon hatching). The CP essentially “shields” your fish from further infestation because anything out there that is going to get on your fish will be killed. And it is effective in the water for 30 days (no UV, no skimmer, no carbon of course).
Now, you just have to deal with the ones still on your fish. A fresh water dip can provide some instant relief, and since there is CP in the water, the fish shouldn't acquire any more parasites. The biggest challenge is keeping them alive for 4 days until the ones currently feeding on your fish release and head off to multiply.
There is also the risk of secondary infection from the hole the parasite leaves in your fish when it releases. Therefore, a broad spectrum antibiotic is also needed.
With my fish, as soon as I saw what was happening, I dosed the tank with CP. I dosed it at 50mg/gallon. I elected to observe the fish rather than chasing them down and stressing them further for a freshwater dip. I unplugged the heater also and allowed the temp to drop down to 74. This was an attempt to slow the fishes metabolism and his breathing since velvet attacks the gills, causing the gills to swell and suffocate the fish.
I know some say to raise the temp to 82 to speed up the life cycle of the parasite but with the CP, the fish is now protected from further infestation. I just wanted them to make it for the next 4 days.
Well, today is day 4. I came in to find the fish out of hiding and swimming around. Most of the spots are gone, or numbers greatly reduced. I expect the spots to fully go away over the next few days as the remaining parasites release and head off to multiply (and get zapped when they hatch). I moved the fish to another tank so I could nuke the one they were in. It was full of live rock and I plan to sterilize it and let the rock sit out in the sun for a few days.
I also dosed with Kanaplex just in case any infections try to set in.
The point of this post was:
1. to further iterate the need for quarantine, and an 8 WEEK quarantine at that (since mine showed up at week 6). I have never lost a fish due to disease that made it through 12 days of TTM and two weeks of observation. Everyone that made it that far went on to to survive longer term. Therefore, I was getting lazy and careless and it could have cost me dearly.
2. to keep a “medicine cabinet” on hand for your fish. I was able to dose Chloroquine phosphate right away since I already had some, along with Kanaplex for a broad spectrum antibiotic. If I would have had to order CP online and wait 5-7 days to get it, I am confident all of my fish would be dead.
From now on, I think I am going to skip the TTM and just do a 30 day dose of CP since I now know that TTM is not 100% effective.
Now CP only works on fish. You can’t use it on inverts.
Also, it is harder to get. I got mine from a pharmacy with the help of a really cool vet. But it is also available on ebay from China. I suggest everybody get some and have it available. Its just too inexpensive to not have it.
And there are a few fish that don’t respond well to it. I know wrasses, blue hippo tangs, and anthias are some that don’t do well. I suggest you do a search of fishes before treating. Humblefish has done a lot of research with CP and listed the fish that he found that responded negatively to CP. But the list was pretty short. Do a search for his thread.
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