Urgent: need help w/ 75g: soliciting for people (1 Viewer)

[PygmyAngel]

Well, it's been a month and a half, and my 75g reef looks like it did right before I tore it down and took 48 hours to clean it....when I lost several fishes, creatures, and a lot of labor, time, and $. I had a HUGE hair algae, detritus problem....and after all was said and done, it was sparkling again....till now. No matter how much I blow the detritus and sand off the rocks and corals, it settles back on them immediately, sticks to the glass, equipment, everything, and I can't eliminate it. I think my rocks are spent, as every time I try to blow them off/out, more just comes out. I had painstakingly taken everything out and cleaned it, removed 95% of water, cleaned all equipment, etc....thinking it needed that, and this would not happen again. It's like someone comes in and just dumps detritus and hair algae into my tank....I think the rocks and sand are full and spent, even though I do have live creatures all in them: worms, pods, etc. I am thinking I just need to remove the old rocks and sand, in order to save this reef once and for all, and get new fresh rocks and only have a small layer of sand in the tank.

But I can't do this alone. I need some kind and understanding people to come over and assess the situation, and help me come to a conclusion, and possibly help w/ the change, whatever that may be. I alone simply cannot do a huge change of this tank again, as I don't want to kill anything else, and it just takes too much time for me to do it alone, as I am convinced that is what happened to the fishes - their time ran out because I could not get them back in their stable environment quick enough.

I know there are several people in Seabrook now, that are on this site, or at least in the Clear Lake area....and I would be so grateful and appreciative, and would owe great favors if some of you would spare some time and see if you could help me do something about this reef....

(This is also why I can't sell everything from my 20g reef....people are waiting on me to get rid of equipment, but I can't deal w/ that, and put the creatures from it into the 75g till I resolve the 75g's issues).

I know I am asking a lot. But this means a great deal to me. I have several thousand dollars and almost 4 yrs, & personal emotion invested into this tank. I can't bear to watch it keep degrading before my eyes. I am asking for genuine help that I will gladly return the favors for, if a few people could please come help me with this. Again, I live in Seabrook, on NASA Rd 1, near 146/Kemah.

If you think you can help, please respond, pm, or call.

Sincerely,
Kim

 

[SeanB]

If you can find a temporary home for the fish, maybe you could let the tank go fallow for about a month and do several large water changes.

During that time, you would not feed the tank at all - unless you have corals, then just very small amounts of invert food.

You could also take your time and make sure you have adequate circulation and make sure your skimmer is clean and working properly.

Also examine your maintenance. How often are you topping off, dumping your skimate, doing water changes, are you over feeding or overstocked?

I think the key here is to determine the cause so you don't find yourself going through this a third time.

I'm sorry I don't live closer, so all I can offer is suggestions. I'd hate to see you lose all that live rock. However, if you do end up going that route, you could always set it aside and use it as base rock some time down the road.

 

[DonnieKim]

I live in Texas City,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,I'm new to the hobby but I can offer some manual labor if you need it! You know strong back weak mind,,,LOL

Donnie

 

[Andy]

Give me a call, I live in Clear Lake.

Andy
832-435-9482

 

[Guest]

There was someone on another board who had the same problem....he tore the entire reef down and used the same LR and the hair algea, etc. came back. You're probably correct in contemplating changing out your sandbed and LR....I feel for you. LR is expensive.

I wish I could help, but we wouldn't make much progess with my little ones running around.

 

[Rick]

Kim,

Sorry to hear about your tank... There has to be a cause, not sure what it would be, I'm no expert, still trying to solve the problem of nitrates in my tank? Would be glad to help you clean and move things around though...

Are your water parameters ok? Maybe your experiencing some die off, on your live rock?
I've also heard of the sand beds getting old and causing problems... But again I'm no expert, just some thoughts. Unfortuanately, I'm a rookie when it comes to reef tanks, Good luck!!!

Rick

 

[PygmyAngel]

Thanks so much for your quick responses so far.

Saberry, I really don't have a temporary home...yet, and I have great hesitation in removing the fishes for a certain time, as that is what caused my others to die in the first place. I had them in tubs, but maybe if I have others help me, someone can offer his/her tank for a few days.... And as for the maintenance and all, yes I have taken everything apart piece by piece several times - which is what I did when I did the major cleaning a month and a half ago. I buy my topoff water, and I don't have much equipment to maintain as it is....but that's part of the problem, too. I have a tank very close to a 'natural reef', in that I only have 2 powerheads, a skimmer and HOB filter with live rock and live sand. Based on this, I do think my live rock and sand were the main filtration media...and after so much time, they are just full of nitrates, and broke down to the point of dusty, sandy, rock and detritus. My fishes and crabs and creatures are lively...but then the gunk takes over...(and as Allyson said, someone else had the same problem, doing the same as I did)...So I think in the case of my tank, and with the little filtration, and natural means that I have used, it really is 'old tank syndrome'....I guess I am having my own epiphany here...because duh, if I am using my live rock and sand as the main forms of filtration - well the skimmer and filter cartridges, when they get full and dirty, you have to clean them, and replace the media....so if the rock and sand are my main forms of 'media', well when they are dirty, how do I clean them? I guess after 3 1/2 years they must be replaced. Yes, I think I did just have an epiphany....
And you guys that have offered to help - I really would appreciate it! But now what....new rocks...and sand? ....I suppose so. I guess it's now time to place a new online order....and how do I go about replacing the sand? Anyone replaced their live sand, and if so, how did you go about it? I will search on reef central about that, in the mean time. Hmmm....perhaps we keep about a 1/4 of it? There are so many worms and pods I don't want to lose. But I don't want to keep too much sand that it's still too 'full' and the same problem persists....Geez, I'm gonna need help for like, 2 or 3 days to accomplish this...

Okay, keep the support coming - at this point I need all the help I can get.



Thanks again to you all who are willing to come over and help me. You don't know how much it means...

 

[Guest]

If you decide to change out your live sand, make sure you do it slowly and a percentage at a time or else you will have some crazy cycles going on in your tank if you do too much of a dramatic replacement. Since your LR and sand are your main filtration methods this should also be tanken into consideration when replacing. You could always put the new LR in with the old until it get seeded and then take out the old LR. The sand, especially with a DSB, you should do in sections at a time, i.e. removing one quadrant of the sand and putting in the new. The sand will be the toughest since you don't want to disturb it too much.

When you said you would clean the detritus and it would continually fall to the bottom and on the rocks.. I was curious if your circulation needed to be "up-ed" a little, more so to keep the detritus in suspension long enough for it to be manually filtered out?? From my own experience, I needed 3-4 powerheads and a large pump, in addition to my Mag 12 return pump just to keep all mine in circulation and filtered well.

 

[Andy]

I did my 200 by myself in 8 hours.
Not a drop on the carpet.

What are the water parameters? Especially PO4, & Nitrate? Bulbs, how old,
What is HOB??


Andy

Rick, i'll post a pic of that BTA tonight, haven't got him to move out of the crevace yet.

 

[Rick]

Thanks Andy... Looking forward to it!!!

Rick

 

[Wildfire]

Kim (PygmyAngel, not Isis)

I second Andy's question, what is your PO4 level? If you don't have a test, I've got one you can borrow, but I would also look at your SiO2 levels also (I've got that kit also). Elevated of each of these can cause massive algae blooms, like you are seeing.

If you find that either are increased, check the following:

1) Sand - I got some "bad sand". You can test by filling a container with RO/DI water, and then drop some sand in. Let it sit 48 hours, then test the water. PO4 or SiO2 leaching would be present in the container water. If nothing, then you can just dump the sand and water back into the tank.

2) Food - I recently had a epiphany that my food (frozen, multiple vendors) as the second ingrediant contians phospates.... This has firced me to start looking for a "Fresh food source" (hello Kema Boardwalk....)

If your PO4 is increased, you can buy a Phosphate sponge (fairly cheaply at most LFS) and drop it into the tank / sump for about 3 days to drop the levels. However, understanding the source will leave you right back where you are today....

 

[Guest]

You could always put the new LR in with the old until it get seeded and then take out the old LR. .

I would be leary of doing this as I would think that you would not only be seeding the new LR with the good stuff but also the hair algae. You're going to end up with some type of cycle, either way you go, even if you get "cured" LR. You're going to have to really watch the water parameters.

On the sandbed....I'd do a search on some of the bigger boards for posts from reefers who have replaced or downsized their sandbeds. The thing I would be concerned about is releasing sulfur pockets and whether or not it would contaminate your sand. I don't have any experience with this, just hrowing it out for you to ponder.

 

[Rick]

Kim,

Another idea, that I've tried before, takes awhile...
I've put a couple of rubbermaid tubs on the floor and put water from the main tank in the 3 tubs. I use the one to shake the ditritus out and to hit it with a powerhea to get as much out as I can then I place it in one of the other tubs, at some point you will need to let the cleaning tub settle and vacuum out the ditiritus, and then repeat the process until you've got it all cleaned up. Even when I was done I'd give it a good shake to make sure it was clean before I placed it back in my tank.

Also I run a cartridge filter and have the polyphil to try and catch some of the ditritus that gets stirred up... That might be part of my problem with nitrates.

I'm sure you already vacuumed the sand bed out real well!!!

Hope you can save your LR...

Rick

 

[Guest]

On the sandbed....I'd do a search on some of the bigger boards for posts from reefers who have replaced or downsized their sandbeds. The thing I would be concerned about is releasing sulfur pockets and whether or not it would contaminate your sand. I don't have any experience with this, just hrowing it out for you to ponder.

I was concerned about the same thing when adding to mine, Anthony Calfo told me to do a little at a time and move the old to one side and add the new.

Kim, you could always send an email to wetwebmedia.com and they could help you out as well.

 

[ChrisB]

I also live in Seabrook and can help lend a hand if you need it.

 

[Guest]

I was concerned about the same thing when adding to mine, Anthony Calfo told me to do a little at a time and move the old to one side and add the new.

That's good to hear. Now that you mentioned specifics I've heard of this method being used successfully.

This is the thread from the guy I was talking about. He got rid of the entire sandbed (bare bottom) and still had problems. You'll notice how he sings the praises of going bare bottom for about a month and then all hell breaks loose again. Check out page 4...it has some tips on being able to reuse the LR from a very credible source.

http://www.thereeftank.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36867&page=1&pp=20

 

[PygmyAngel]

First, HOB filter is Hang On the Back filter. (I have an Emperor 400, no biowheels). I do have polyfill in it, as well as carbon, and I use Polyfilters in it also. The Emperor also substitutes as a mini-refugium, as every time I change out media and clean the filter, tons of pods are living and breeding in it.

As for seeding new live rock w/ old, I have the same concern as Allyson....I think I would just be transferring everything from the crappy rock to the new.....

For removing a little sand at a time...how do I do that with a reef full of animals, and again, with the worry of releasing pockets of sulfur and crap, and then having sand full of 3 yrs. of detritus and stuff just fall all over the rocks...I'd have to have an empty tank it seems to me.....

And when I did the major change a month and a half ago, I DID remove everything to 3 tubs....I had all the rocks and corals sitting in there circulating with powerheads and heaters, in the water from the tank. I painstakingly cleaned off all the detritus and gunk from every single piece. I used all tank water, and removed like 99% of the water from my tank. I left all the sand in the tank. I removed/vac'ed out as much hair algae and detritus I could. The tank was sparkling clear, the rocks were cleaned off, the equipment was all removed and taken apart piece by piece....put all back to gether, great flow, filtration, blah blah....had somewhat of a cycle obviously, w/ brand new water....and tank has gone down hill from there.

Okay, YES, I could use more flow. I need more flow for sure. I don't have much $ to spare, but a wavemaker or some extra flow thingies (powerheads or whatever) would make a good difference...although I never have used more than I have in the tank all this time...again why I feel my rock and sand are 'spent'.

As for 'bad' sand....my sand is the same sand I've had in the tank since day 1: almost 4 years ago...no new sand has been added lately. There is life in the sand and rocks...but rocks look silty, detritus-y, fuzzy, brown, and I have not seen bright purple coralline on them in over 2 years, like I used to see.

My bulbs are 4 VHOs....I replaced them in May...problem got worse...has been going for about 5-6 mos. now.

Params....I don't know exactly. My test kits are old, and the readings I get are not reliable. I stopped trying that a long time ago. My nitrates although, have ALWAYS read off the scale....it stopped bothering me about 3 yrs. ago. The phosphates have always been undetecteable, but again, I have not measured them in forever.

I don't have southdown sand, I have playsand, and fiji pink. The playsand is silicate sand, I think. Maybe after so many years it has reached capacity, and everything is leaching out. Again, sounds like 'old tank syndrome'.

Some possible solutions (or not).....
1) more flow
2) sand cleaner(s) - cucumber, whatnot
3) new sand
4) new rock
5) new test kits to help adjust params
6) better skimmer (I have a Prizm - not a pro)
7) refugium and/or sump (not likely to happen)

And I still need to go to Reef central, Wetwebmedia and others to see what others are doing....

 

[Guest]

First, HOB filter is Hang On the Back filter. (I have an Emperor 400, no biowheels). I do have polyfill in it, as well as carbon, and I use Polyfilters in it also. The Emperor also substitutes as a mini-refugium, as every time I change out media and clean the filter, tons of pods are living and breeding in it.

Well that is definitely a good thing...

As for seeding new live rock w/ old, I have the same concern as Allyson....I think I would just be transferring everything from the crappy rock to the new.....

I see what you are saying, but all in the same, if it is the rock and sand that is causing all the issues, the new rocks wouldn't promote the growth once the problems were removed, especially if you had the grazers that eat the hair algae. But I suppose if you needed to you could just cure it in a tub in the dark where the hair algae wouldn't grow due to lack of light and then transfer over. Either way you would want to make sure that your rock was pretty cured since you wouldn't want your tank to crash due to lack of biofiltration, especially since the new rock might not be able to handle your bio-load.

For removing a little sand at a time...how do I do that with a reef full of animals, and again, with the worry of releasing pockets of sulfur and crap, and then having sand full of 3 yrs. of detritus and stuff just fall all over the rocks...I'd have to have an empty tank it seems to me.....

If you end up doing it a section at a time, you would only disturb a portion small enough for tank to handle the sulfur. I used to disturb mine all the time with no problems. Like I said, just do a quarter of the sand on one side and gradually move to the other side over a period of days or weeks so that the new sand can "adapt". If you are ultimately going to take out the rock, then there should be no worries in rearranging it. As for your critters, maybe you should consider some "babysitters" or selling a few just so you can get the tank back up and running to proper order like you would like. At least if there are any cycles that the new rock and have to go through, your critters will be less likely affected if they are in a good temporary home.

And when I did the major change a month and a half ago, I DID remove everything to 3 tubs....I had all the rocks and corals sitting in there circulating with powerheads and heaters, in the water from the tank. I painstakingly cleaned off all the detritus and gunk from every single piece. I used all tank water, and removed like 99% of the water from my tank. I left all the sand in the tank. I removed/vac'ed out as much hair algae and detritus I could. The tank was sparkling clear, the rocks were cleaned off, the equipment was all removed and taken apart piece by piece....put all back to gether, great flow, filtration, blah blah....had somewhat of a cycle obviously, w/ brand new water....and tank has gone down hill from there.

Perhaps it wasn't done cycling when you put everything back in, or even to date. Heck, removing 99% of the water is like removing 99% of your biofiltration, especially if you cleaned the rocks and your biofiltration on the rocks had a considerable die-off.

Okay, YES, I could use more flow. I need more flow for sure. I don't have much $ to spare, but a wavemaker or some extra flow thingies (powerheads or whatever) would make a good difference...although I never have used more than I have in the tank all this time...again why I feel my rock and sand are 'spent'.

I suppose with a situation like yours, maybe it was just a matter of time before it caught up to you??? Who knows, but it doesn't hurt to add.

As for 'bad' sand....my sand is the same sand I've had in the tank since day 1: almost 4 years ago...no new sand has been added lately. There is life in the sand and rocks...but rocks look silty, detritus-y, fuzzy, brown, and I have not seen bright purple coralline on them in over 2 years, like I used to see.

Well if you have replenished your calcium supply that your corals, fish, coraline algae gets it calcium from, then all that could be contributing to the problem as well.

My bulbs are 4 VHOs....I replaced them in May...problem got worse...has been going for about 5-6 mos. now.

Params....I don't know exactly. My test kits are old, and the readings I get are not reliable. I stopped trying that a long time ago. My nitrates although, have ALWAYS read off the scale....it stopped bothering me about 3 yrs. ago. The phosphates have always been undetecteable, but again, I have not measured them in forever.

I don't have southdown sand, I have playsand, and fiji pink. The playsand is silicate sand, I think. Maybe after so many years it has reached capacity, and everything is leaching out. Again, sounds like 'old tank syndrome'.

That could be one main problem there. That silicate sand can be a problem over time, leaching all kinds of crap into your water. I used to use it and never did again once I found an aragonite sand.

 

[incysor]

Kim,

I don't know what kind of fish/critters you have, but my 40gal cube is mostly empty. (Some hermits, and maybe one starfish) It's going to be the octopus home again in the future so even though it's plumbed with the 75 there's nothing in it. You're welcome to keep critters in there until you get your issues worked out. I'm not planning on ordering another octo for at least a couple months, so it wouldn't be an inconvenience.

Here's a pic of what I'm talking about.

Lemme know if this would help.

Brian

 

[Rick]

I would think like the article that Isis posted that you should be able to clean the LR extremely thoroughly and reuse. If your sand has a silicate base, replace it... If it is a good quality, can't it be cleaned very thoroughly, and let it dry out even... leaving some of the old stuff to reseed and make sure the tank cycles quickly. It would be a long process, but a lot less expensive than the alternative. With my very limited budget on SW tanks that I'm allowed I would definitely try it.