Calcium Reactor vs 2 part (1 Viewer)

[oguzman]

I like my carx, thing is pretty darned stable. But I do agree with some of the concerns it does lower your pH. An FYI I run a kalk reactor and pull air from outside and I'm still hovering at 8-8.2. It'll get lower if I don't change out my fuge for 1-2 weeks.

 

[Reefahholic]

Ah, but you leave off the axis marks, so your graph is WAY zoomed in. Your spikes are in the 0.05-0.10 range on the doser, if even that high. So when you zoom out with 0 dKh at the bottom and say 12 dKh on the top, all your lines are relatively flat. Something like this. And I don't think corals are that sensitive to those level small fluctuations in alkalinity. I do NOT intend to invalidate your point, a CaRx does provide a more consistent value, I just don't think it matters.




EDIT: Please don't be intimidated by my free-hand graphing skills. I had to learn it for my engineering degree. 20 years later, and clearly it's paid off.

Do you know the percentage of the TOTM winners on RC / R2R who had Acropora dominated systems who relied primarily on a dosing pump for supplementation in the last 20 years?

 

[Reefahholic]

I've had the opposite experience.. going from the CO2 reactor for 10+ years, swapping to the 2 part in the last 5 months I've had a great improvement on a lot of acropora corals. I would currently attribute it to the fact I'm better able to manage my alkalinity coupled with the improved pH (this video started my investigation into the change). You might argue my calcium reactor was under-powered, but it was rated for a 700 gallon tank and I had it running pretty aggressively. I'm also not convinced a rock solid alkalinity (+/- 0.05 dkh at all times) is a critical measure.

My point; I'm more interested in the potential improvements in elevated pH as it relates to coral calcification capability as opposed to the stability you propose. I'm not saying either implementation is better, but for my system at this snapshot on the timeline, it's the better solution (pun intended) for me.

A calcium reactor is much better than a pump. It’s not even close. Even if the pH stays at 8.0 24/7.

What pump are you running and how much are you dosing daily?

 

[Reefahholic]

Here’s one of those depressed pH reactor tanks. Growth was stunted.

Tank size

75 gallon 48"L x 18"W x 20"H with 40 gallon custom sump

Parameters

Alk 9
CA 450
Mag 1450-1500
Salinity 35 ppt (specific gravity 1.026) - Reef Crystals salt
temp 79-80

—————————————-

My parameters are spot on for what I usually keep them at:
Alk 9.5
CA 450
Mag 1400
Salinity 35 ppt (lowered by a point recently to see if that helped - it didn't)
Nitrates undetectable
Phosphate undetectable via Hanna meter.


Equipment

Geo 618 calcium reactor
Aqua C EV-120 skimmer
Radium 250 watt MH lighting in Lumenarc Mini reflectors with IceCap ballasts
2 x 48" Sunbrite LED actinics
Eheim 1260 return
Closed loop with Super Dart pump and Oceans Motions Super Squirt compact
Reefkeeper 2 controller

Photoperiod

Actinics 7:30 AM to 10:30 PM
MH 11:30 Am to 7 PM

Feeding

Fish get fed a very small amount of Formula One flakes once daily
Corals get fed 5ml of Oyster Feast and Phytoplankton or RotiFeast every other day or so (when I remember)

Maintenence

10 gallon water change every 2 weeks

The last picture was just before I took this tank down 2 weeks ago and moved everything to a 200 gallon tank with LED lighting. Several of the corals had grown to the front panel and reaching the coraline to scrape it was impossible without breaking something. Everything was so grown together and intertwined the left side pretty was one solid mass. This should be a good test to compare LED to MH.

 

[soymilk]

its not all a zero sum game. Calcium reactor is 100% a totally a more economical way to dose alk/calc and trace into your tank. I don't think anyone is arguing against that.

I was just saying I think dosing can provide fairly stable parameters. Close enough where the minute swings don't really matter. I'm not rallying against a calcrx. They are all just tools. Both come with pros and cons.

 

[RR-MAN]

You guys are forgetting the trace elements provided by a calcium reactor when those rocks melt.

With dosers it's just Alk/Cal/Mg unless you dose more trace elements which means more chores.

Calcium reactor is definitely a better option but it's not for everyone. It takes time to learn/tweak accordingly UNLESS it's a DaStaco which is set it and forget it.

 

[Cody]

You guys are forgetting the trace elements provided by a calcium reactor when those rocks melt.

With dosers it's just Alk/Cal/Mg unless you dose more trace elements which means more chores.

Calcium reactor is definitely a better option but it's not for everyone. It takes time to learn/tweak accordingly UNLESS it's a DaStaco which is set it and forget it.

With the implementation of a Milwaukee ph controller, an electric solenoid, and a Kamoer continuous duty pump, you can create the same “one knob” solution that a DaStaco offers for about half the price. Want more alk? Turn the Kamoer up. Want less? Turn it down.

 

[soymilk]

guys, we weren't debating the virtues of calcrx. We were debating if the pros of a steady alk/calc production from a calc reactor outweighed the con of the minute alk/calc spike from dosing.

My argument was i doubt .004 alk spikes matters.

In the long run calc reactor is a more efficient way if replenishing alk and calc and trace elements. But both ways have their pros and cons.

 

[RR-MAN]

With the implementation of a Milwaukee ph controller, an electric solenoid, and a Kamoer continuous duty pump, you can create the same “one knob” solution that a DaStaco offers for about half the price. Want more alk? Turn the Kamoer up. Want less? Turn it down.

True but typically 95% of reefers need less Alkalinity (less mature tanks). Getting the biggest/baddest reactor in reality is not a good idea.

 

[crvz]

A calcium reactor is much better than a pump. It’s not even close. Even if the pH stays at 8.0 24/7.

What pump are you running and how much are you dosing daily?

Apex DOS pump with 5 gallon reservoirs using BRS chemicals. About 250mL of each solution per day right now. I test a couple times a week and adjust if needed.

 

[crvz]

Do you know the percentage of the TOTM winners on RC / R2R who had Acropora dominated systems who relied primarily on a dosing pump for supplementation in the last 20 years?

Well RC hasn't updated their TOTM for since April 2015, and that one used both CalRx and doser because the CalRx couldn't keep up... so the data is inconclusive. ;-)

You seem aggressively against dosing. Do you really feel the only solution is a calcium reactor? I feel either can be executed with success, I've been on both trains and recently changed to dosing due to my interest in gaining some experience with a sustained higher pH value (which, incidentally, I think has increased my alkalinity uptake, hopefully due to increased calcification).

 

[crvz]

Well RC hasn't updated their TOTM for since April 2015, and that one used both CalRx and doser because the CalRx couldn't keep up... so the data is inconclusive. ;-)

You seem aggressively against dosing. Do you really feel the only solution is a calcium reactor? I feel either can be executed with success, I've been on both trains and recently changed to dosing due to my interest in gaining some experience with a sustained higher pH value (which, incidentally, I think has increased my alkalinity uptake, hopefully due to increased calcification).

You know your question intrigued me, and I went and look at the 2021 reef tank spotlights on R2R (there seemed to be a gap after March of 2021 and July of 2019, but I'm not very familiar with that forum). Now you could pick it apart and look at which ones were primarily SPS dominated (which was a part of your question), but most of them were pretty heavy in SPS corals. Seems to be a mixed bag to me.

Dosing only - Dec 21, Sep 21, Apr 21, Mar 21
CaRx only - Nov 21, Aug 21, Jun 21
Both - Oct 21, Jul 21

 

[soymilk]

Dang, fact checked.

 

[Reefahholic]

There is no doubt…not even a question in my mind…that a calcium reactor will smoke a dosing pump when it comes down to STABILITY. It is far more stable.


Trust me…those little spikes do matter! Merely turkey basting your rocks can affect your alkalinity demand. 
Sure, you can grow big colonies with a dosing pump, but a reactor will beat you there. If you wanna grow coral the “fastest way” possible the reactor is king if you’re picking one primary method. This is why most of these top pros (with coral farms that do this for a living) are running reactors.


Going back to what RR-MAN said. There are more trace elements in the reactor media than there is in regular 2-part. 
However, Let’s say you started a 2-part program like AF 123 or TM All-For-Reef (or similar) which contains traces. Over time…certain elements will drift out of range while others will not make it to target levels. Some elements will be undetected. These programs above are overrated. Why? Because I’ve ran several of them and know from personal experience. To name a few recently: The Red Sea Trace Color Program and Triton Core 7. A good friend of mine was running AF 123 as I was on these other programs. Both of us experienced the same issues. Elements with all these programs will not always behave like “they claim” and every tank has a different demand. Some elements will be consumed differently regardless of dosing off CAL or ALK consumption. These programs do not work well longterm.


Let’s take Iodine for example. This element is very difficult to deal with “even with precision dosing.” It’s quickly consumed…sometimes within a few days (or less) and becomes depleted. It’s also easily overdosed! Guess where it will be on these programs…DEPLETED!


Let’s also take Manganese and Vanadium for example. What happens to these elements when you’re running a large ATS under intense lighting?? You guessed it…they’re gone! Triton and others avoid telling you this! According to them…they can handle it all. They’re 4 bottle miracle programs! Lol. Wrong!


For this reason I run a calcium reactor which gives me a base line of major elements and several trace’s, but I also supplement the reactor. Some elements still need to be tweaked. For my current process they’re all basically low.


Also, with all the crappy media’s we have now (due to Covid) some elements can potentially drift, but much less frequent than the elements in these program’s. The reactor media is different from batch to batch now, but It’s still better than dosing 2-part if you’re after “stability” and the “fastest growth.”


The only way I’ll go back to dosing as my primary method would be if the media were to get so bad that I have no choice. If the media started to have purity issues or “several” elements were drifting, I’d have to switch back to gain better control.

With Covid still going full force…anything can happen these days. Look at the TMP salt. Things will only get worse until we finally get some normalcy back.

 

[Reefahholic]

You know your question intrigued me, and I went and look at the 2021 reef tank spotlights on R2R (there seemed to be a gap after March of 2021 and July of 2019, but I'm not very familiar with that forum). Now you could pick it apart and look at which ones were primarily SPS dominated (which was a part of your question), but most of them were pretty heavy in SPS corals. Seems to be a mixed bag to me.

Dosing only - Dec 21, Sep 21, Apr 21, Mar 21
CaRx only - Nov 21, Aug 21, Jun 21
Both - Oct 21, Jul 21

Still 5 to 4…

Most people running a reactor has a pump on standby for easy supplementing (including myself).

 

[Reefahholic]

Dang, fact checked.

Fact check all day…you find out soon! Run that pump.

 

[Reefahholic]

True but typically 95% of reefers need less Alkalinity (less mature tanks). Getting the biggest/baddest reactor in reality is not a good idea.

618 w/ 618 2nd chamber. Carbon doser and Kamoer. No controller or pH monitor yet.

Will post update pic soon. It’s running now.

 

[Reefahholic]

I was just saying I think dosing can provide fairly stable parameters. Close enough where the minute swings don't really matter.

It can, but it can’t compete with a reactor. Pumps are not stable enough. The growth takes twice as long so that should give you the answer that you’re looking for.

Let’s all be honest. Corals grow slow. We all want the absolute fastest growth possible until we arrive at big colonies. Then it really doesn’t matter. Put me on a pump and I won’t care. Once corals get to a decent size they take off.

One thing I’ve noticed about Acro’s over the years is just like anemone’s…you wanna start with a healthy specimen. Otherwise you might be waiting 6 months to a year for that coral to color up and start growing well. I just don’t have that kind of time.

 

[crvz]

The growth takes twice as long…

Is this opinion/conjecture, or do you have documentation to back it up? I’d love to see supporting data on it.

 

[Reefahholic]

Is this opinion/conjecture, or do you have documentation to back it up? I’d love to see supporting data on it.

This is fact. Anybody that has been in the hobby long enough knows. I’m shocked this is all new information for you.